Working Through Anxiety and Grief with Michelle Shlafman

Anxiety and Grief with Michelle Shlafman

On this episode, I'm joined by Michelle Shlafman, a holistic psychotherapist and coach who has been practicing in the field of mind-body-spirit healing for 10 years. She has a passion for helping clients process grief and anxiety, and I'm really excited to share our conversation with you.

Grief is not a subject I've talked a lot about on the podcast, but is such a important topic, and has such an intertwined relationship with anxiety. I've been wanting to have this conversation, so when I came across Michelle I knew she was the right person to do this with.

Defining Grief

Grief can be really hard to recognize or even explain, so I wanted to start our conversation by digging a little deeper into what we mean by grief.

Michelle describes grief as a deep, visceral experience, that really allows our body to move through difficult life events. It's helpful to remember it's not just about losing a loved one; it could be losing a job, a relationship, or even your favorite shirt. It stirs up all sorts of feelings—sadness, anger, acceptance. Basically, if you feel, you'll go through grief at some point.

Anxiety & Grief

Anxiety and grief are often intertwined, intensifying each others affects. Anxiety can increase when a person is already grieving, and grief can intensify anxiety symptoms, forming a sort of feedback loop. It can be tricky when these feelings blend together, and it can be a really confusing and overwhelming time.

Grief can mimic symptoms of nervous system dysregulation, like those associated with fight, flight, freeze or fawn responses, so it makes sense when grief manifests into physical symptoms, which can look different from person to person.

Michelle believes the nervous system holds all of our experiences, like a blueprint to our lives, and talks about the importance of moving grief from the mind into the body through the nervous system. This helps the process of adjusting to loss, allowing the mind and body to get to know each other's experiences of grief.

Like in anxiety recovery, staying only in the intellectual/mental space of grief without connecting it to physical sensations prevents us from processing and releasing what we feel. Michelle explains how it can be helpful to release grief physically, through movement, meditation and touch, to relieve symptoms and thoughts associated with trying to suppress or fight grief.

Community & Finding Support

Grief can feel super isolating, and whilst we all will have our own unique experiences and journeys when navigating grief, finding community and connection with others who have experienced similar losses can truly help alleviate the isolation of grief.

The feeling of belonging to a shared experience can be a real game changer, showing us we are not alone, and it's often in this space where healing starts to happen. Grief doesn't follow a linear timeline, and there are so many layers to move through, but doing this with support behind you can make all the difference.

Grief is a complex process that looks different for everyone. Honoring where you're at, feeling your emotions physically, and practicing self-compassion are important parts of healing. Make sure to tune into the full episode for lots more wisdom, insights, and practical tips. Remember, it's the small steps that will take us where we want to be. Keep taking healthy action, friend.

Connect with Michelle!

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TRANSCRIPT

Shannon Jackson  00:02

All right, I am so excited. I have Michelle here with me today. And Michelle is a holistic psychotherapist and a coach. And we're gonna be talking about a subject that I haven't really talked about. But I know so many people are hugely affected by and it's such an important topic, which is grief. So before we get there, Michelle, welcome to a healthy, fresh podcast.

00:26

Thank you for having me.

Shannon Jackson  00:28

Yeah, I am so excited. So before we jump in, let's have people just meet Michelle. So who is Michelle, tell us a little bit about you.

00:37

Michelle, is I've been practicing in the field for about 10 years now and have a deep love and passion for anything Mind Body Spirit related. I'm definitely a believer in the integrative process of healing. So you'll hear me speak on Instagram about many of the connections between those three trios of our holistic wellness. And then I I really love talking about grief and anxiety. You know, how we intellectualize our thoughts moving into the body with any type of trauma that we face? And yeah, just been doing it for a while now. And in Love it. Love it a

Shannon Jackson  01:16

lot. Yeah, well, I knew when I came across your Instagram, I'm like, Okay, I've been wanting to have this conversation about grief. And I just know and feel like you're the right person to do this with. So let's just start on a very simple level, but I feel like it's necessary because even myself when I was like really thinking, what is grief, I feel like you I can call it sort of what I feel when I felt grief. But I feel like it's a really hard thing sometimes to recognize, explain, really, really know what it is. So in your terms, what is grief.

01:54

Grief is so many things. It is a, I think deep visceral experience that we move through. And it can be in conjunction with any loss, anything that we held dear to our hearts that's no longer present. Grief can be, you know, the loss of a job, the loss of a partner or the loss of a loved one it can be most people relate grief to death. But it doesn't have to be grief to death. Grief can be in relation to a chronic illness, a diagnosis that you've received that has the potential to limit your physical and mental experiences. It really can relate to anything and everything. It can be the loss of your favorite shirt, you can grieve over that. But I think grief is the experience that really allows our body to move through this kind of shaken up experience in our nervous system. And it provokes anxiety. It provokes sadness. It provokes anger. It provokes frustration. It provokes acceptance. It it's a multifaceted creature, that we all go through anyone that has emotions, and feels goes through grief.

Shannon Jackson  03:09

I love like everything that you just said. I think why, you know, grief as an emotion Why is so tricky is because it does bring on so many other emotions. And usually those emotions that are often really tricky. It's like, super challenging to navigate. So I'm curious what sort of when you're experiencing grief, what sort of symptoms can come up? What can it look like when you're navigating that?

03:35

Mm hmm. You know, when people say I'm heartbroken, they literally are when someone experiences grief and their heart hurts, it physically manifests as pain in the brain. It's the same as a physical acute pain, the pain is the exact same and the physical experiences and the emotional experiences and symptoms of grief or, you know, increased anxiety, depression, sadness. It could be soreness of the body headaches, it could be stomach aches, the strangest aches and pains when it affects our nervous system, it spreads. And so someone might feel chronic fatigue and other person might feel like they're irritable all the time. Someone might sense that they're lightheaded or dizzy. You know, grief mimics the symptoms of complete nervous system dysregulation, whether it be fight, flight, freeze or fawn. All of it is involved in grief and 20 million other symptoms besides those. But you know, that's that's to outline what one might consider how does one feel with grief? What are the symptoms? Those are the ones to look out for?

Shannon Jackson  04:52

Yeah, I think I've seen this and I'm sure of course you have in your work a lot of people I can arrive to really struggling with anxiety disorder because of grief and because of unprocessed grief and trauma. And I think that makes things so tricky because you don't always you're not always able to see that you don't really have that awareness that like, oh, it makes sense that I experienced a loss or a close loss or, you know, the death of a relationship, or whatever it is. And now I'm experiencing all this anxiety, and said, You're just like, oh, my gosh, why this is so problematic. So I just wonder if you seen that with people.

05:43

And it's a feedback loop, right? Sometimes people who are already predisposed to anxiety, their anxiety will increase inside of grief. And sometimes people who wouldn't ever identify someone having anxiety, who then experience grief, have the anxiety and the peace that's tricky for many individuals, is it? It's so blended in together? So when someone has grief and anxiety, they're going to have ruminating thoughts, their sense of regret is going to be more enhanced. They'll get stuck inside of what if I could have done this differently? What if I could have had that last conversation? What if I could have? I don't know what if the relationship could have been different, especially to the people who they've lost. So anxiety, I think really intensifies the experience of grief. And vice versa, I think grief really intensifies the experience of anxiety. And when those two are intertwined, it's like a really big, scary monster for a lot of people because they feel like they'll never be able to move on. They'll feel like it's something that they, you know, they just they can't let go of when all of this occurs. It's really, really confusing.

Shannon Jackson  07:01

Yeah, absolutely. There's just so much so much going on. So I want to go there. But I feel like before we go there, I want to go to a couple of other places. So with grief, I know you say, grief has to really be released from your nervous system. I think that I agree. I think that's how a lot of the healing does happen surrounding grief, and especially when it's intertwined with anxiety. What do you mean by that? It has to be released from your nervous system. Yeah, yeah.

07:34

Our nervous system is this really beautiful thing that holds every one of our experiences and because it holds every one of our experiences, it's like, it's like the brute the blueprint to how we live our life. So when I say it needs to be released from the nervous system, what, what I mean by that is it needs to be processed, it needs to be held in a sacred space, it needs to be observed. It needs to be tended to not just emotionally but somatically. It needs to be moved through the mind and into the body. And when we when we're looking at our nervous system, the combination of the mental thoughts and physical experiences, have to get to know one another. And I think a lot of us inside of grief and anxiety tend to stay so deeply in our brains in that intellectual place, that we forget that we have a body. And so to move it, we need to feel it not feel it just with our minds. Or intellectualize it just with our words, but maybe we shake it off. Maybe we hold intentional touch to our bodies, maybe we maybe we just like sit in meditation and feel what it's like to live inside of the experience of anxiety and grief. What color is it? What shape is it? What size is it wood texture, what heaviness and when we give him the space to breathe and move it into our body. That's when it can be released. It doesn't mean it doesn't mean that grief will just discontinue it doesn't mean it will vanish it will, it will no longer be there grief is something that we have to address to live with. But ultimately, when we move it through our nervous system, it helps that process of adjustment.

Shannon Jackson  09:17

Yeah, and I imagine to at the same time, right, it helps to relieve some of the symptoms and and the thoughts the you know, the stuff that we want so badly to go away and bird fighting it and trying to make it go away that way. But it's like, okay, well, maybe a way to help relieve all this is to actually feel it. I know that. Of course I've experienced grief myself. And I think one of the hardest things was when I was working through this was the encouragement that I was getting from my therapist actually feel it and I was like nananana No, but I don't want like what to write I didn't want to and it reminded me so much of when I was struggling with my anxiety just sort readers and I was like, be with this, like, you want me to just be with this? And yeah, that that experience right of wanting to run from it wanting to get rid of it like, of course, of course you do. Like no human is like, great, let me sit with this. But there was so much that I got from allowing myself to feel what the heck was going on in my body and how it was showing up in my body. I was just like, okay, yeah, I'm not a good feeler. But it takes that intentional practice, and so incredibly helpful. I imagine, of course, you've had that experience many times with people, you know, you want to run from it, you don't want to feel it. It's

10:44

it's the primary complaint, I think of most of my clients is, why do I have to feel this and what I always share is, well, first of all, our our goal together is to make sure that you are safe. So at any point in time you decide it's too much for you, let me know, and we can kind of we can back up a little bit and and be wherever it is that you are, you know, in the quote that we all know the only way out is through it's it's really true, I think, to spiritually bypass grief, would take away the that sense of adjustment and finding your way again, if we are to just ignore it. Chances are, you're not going to live life to your fullest, there's going to be stuff stored in the unconscious mind and the subconscious mind the repressed feelings that will discover some of your new life experiences. So I think to feel it is really important and what I mean by to feel it too. You know, I don't think it might be what everyone's thinking, it doesn't mean that we have to envision someone's death or that we have to envision the loss of a job or that we have to envision everything that we went through, it doesn't mean that we have to create the narrative over again, as it was in the past. It just means there's this kind of abstract experience of feeling the essence of grief, like, maybe we go, maybe we feel into that frustration, and that anger, and we are we just yell, maybe we just yell, you know, or maybe we we hit our test is, you know, gentle slash. Whatever the word is, however, we want to move with that, right? Yeah, as much as we possibly can to, to release whatever that is. So sitting through it and feeling it doesn't mean that we have to live through every single story of it. It just means we feel into the essence of it in our body, whatever that looks or feels like, Oh,

Shannon Jackson  12:43

my goodness, so much of what you just said, like sitting here and like thinking Dang. Yep. I know people are are thinking this or wondering this with grief, you sort of alluded to this, we obviously can't make it go away. But it's troublesome right? When it keeps popping up in it sort of feels like it comes in different, different versions, you know, it sort of might subside, and then it comes back in these waves. And it can be incredibly challenging. So it's like, what, how can we be better about making space for it? I guess it's it's like, we want it to go away. It's not ever going to really go away. But like, is there some optimism there? Yeah, grief

13:35

doesn't have to be a monster. And a lot of people feel that grief is this, you know, monster that has no end. And there is a truth to that. But I think ultimately, the language of self compassion inside of the grief experience, being able to hold like, gentle, nurturing energy, being able to connect with people who have gone through it before, like, there are ways through it, that aren't as terrifying and I am a experiencer of grief. It's one of the reasons why I am so passionate about holding space for those who have grief, because I've been through. I've been through my moments. And I think for me, you know, when my therapist and my chiropractor held space for me to process my sadness, there was nothing like it. Like I think having the other person to witness your experience. So you're not feeling as isolated or alone inside of your grief is very helpful. I don't necessarily think that everyone, it's not that you have to have a therapist or coach or chiropractor to support you through that grief. However, I think it can be really helpful. You know, there are groups, there are art classes, there are expression and movement resources, like anything that that brings community to you as you move through this is going to be really helpful. So and there are there A million resources for grief. But it doesn't mean that every resource is right for you either. Because it's not.

Shannon Jackson  15:05

Yeah, I think you just hit on something big, I think grief can feel very isolating, it can be really challenging because of course, each even if somebody else has been through it, it's very unique to you, and in your own experience, and of course, it's you who went through it. And so it feels very painful. And I think our tendency when you're experiencing loss or grief of any nature, right, it's like, I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to share I don't. But I found, you know, personally, and with so many others, that when you actually are able to be in community with others, and to share and to to know, other people have gone through this too. And yet, it hasn't looked exactly like my experience, but other people have felt what I'm feeling other people have had the thoughts that I've thought that I'm truly not alone in this, I think that is so incredibly helpful.

16:06

The feeling of belonging to a shared experience, especially in you know, Kristin Neff works of self compassion, is, I mean, for me personally, and my therapy, and in the therapy that I provide for others, it is the foundation from which I practice, can we be kind to ourselves and to others? Can we bring the whether you fully understand or not the idea of my god, like you are going through such a monumental thing. And you know, a dear dear friend in my life just lost their best friend, their animal. And it's interesting, because, you know, when someone moves through even the loss of something that is like, it's a soulmate, you know, it's something that they they can never replace. How do you move through that? How, how do you live again, and not only with her, but with other people. It's like, the gentle moments of going outside and seeing the ladybug on a flower, or going outside and seeing that the sun will rise every single day, and you get to begin again. Or that wait a second, when you share on social media, that you just lost your best friend, that there are 75 responses of I can relate to that. This is what happened to me. And when that shared connection occurs, there's something so healing about that doesn't mean again that the grief will vanish. But it means that wait a second, I'm not alone. And I think for most people, whether they've lost a spouse, they've lost an animal, they've lost a child. Wait a second, I'm not alone, is the verbiage that brings them to that place of healing, you know, in addition to feeling it within their bodies, in addition to nurturing their nervous system, like grief is not just a linear timeline of like, well, I just, I just need to do that one thing. Yeah, what we think will be fine. No, no, no, no, no. It's this whole comprehensive spiritual experience of moving through all these different layers to get yourself to the place of wait a second today. wasn't that bad today actually was okay. I can find joy and joy again, I can smile again. My anxieties not as bad, you know? Yeah.

Shannon Jackson  18:22

I think something that I've heard a lot, and I'm not going to get this right. But I thought that this was such a beautiful way to frame it, that I've heard multiple people say that it's, you know, it's not that you ever really get rid of the grief, right? It's that you sort of make space for it, like the container for it becomes bigger, and so it doesn't feel so consuming. But I think it translated for me so much with my anxiety disorder, struggling with panic and agoraphobia that like I the less I fought it, and the less I tried to make it go away. And the more I just made space for it. It actually allowed me to experience that relief and to see I don't need to completely get rid of anxiety like yes, I I hate it sometimes. And I really would love it to just go away and never come back. I don't mean to make it not exist to continue to have this amazing, fulfilling, beautiful life. So I think that can be helpful to like you, you're not going to get rid of it right but making more space for it is so helpful. I I am curious what you're thinking what you think about this, because this is something I hear a lot of people say specifically relating to struggling with anxiety disorder. i People will say I really feel like I am this different person, like I am grieving my old life. My old self like that person is gone. And I am now just this person who is deeply struggling with anxiety disorder and I don't ever see myself getting back to that for version of me, that version that used to get in the car and go and do and go on the trips and not carry all this with me. Like, I think there is a very distinct type of grieving that happens when you're navigating and anxieties, Jordan and also other things, right? Also other struggles. But what do you what are your thoughts and like, I feel like I'm grieving my old life, my old self, and that person's gone. Like what, what now?

20:31

It is one of the biggest identity shifts, we will ever move through. And in most people's lives, it doesn't happen just once. That happens multiple times. And I think for those who, of course, have anxiety, and honestly, most people that experience grief will have anxiety to it's hard, it's hard to separate those there are some that might not have a lot of it, but, but a lot of people who have grief, wind up having anxiety, because they don't know what it's like to be in their new body. And it is a new body. I mean, literally, when we, when we're inside of grief, ourselves changed, because we are no longer that person anymore. You know, I remember when I lost my father, and I recognize that I'm not me anymore. I'm a different person, I'm walking in the surf without a father. And when someone moves through that experience, everything shifts, you're you're the person that you knew that you were is no longer that person anymore. And I think when we're looking at anxiety, and we're looking at identity, and we're looking at belief systems, we have to form a different sense of self. And that for anyone, whether you're coming out of honestly, like, you know, a religious paradigm where you've been inside of a certain church system, or a certain way of viewing the world, and that ends, there's an identity shift if we're, if we lose a parent or a spouse or child, that's an identity shift. And what you said earlier, like, what do what do you do? If you have anxiety, if you if you can't move about your day? How do you support that if there's been this huge identity shift. And I would say that, in this, this is probably going to be a really hard thing to hear. But it doesn't mean that that's a bad thing. When we're inside of an identity shift, it just means that something has changed. As humans, we put an attach meaning to it, something that's changed is bad. And of course, when we lose some weight, it feels bad. But it's part of life, it doesn't mean that it's bad, it means that there is something that has internally shifted in our world and has externally moved. And now we have to find our footing again. But it doesn't mean that it's bad. And that's one of the things that I try and remind people of is we put meaning because it hurts when something hurts, that means it's bad. But that's not necessarily a fat. Yeah, it feels like it's a fact, you know, because it's a feeling of it feeling bad. What is bad? How does bad look? Is it because it feels uncomfortable? Most time we identified that with uncomfortable. And so if we can really work with that language, when we're anxious of Wait a second, just because I feel this way, it doesn't mean it's forever. It doesn't mean that it's bad. It just means that I am changing.

Shannon Jackson  23:34

I think you hit on the identity shift, right is, is both good, but incredibly hard, because it is incredibly uncomfortable to uncomfortable. Right? You see this sort of it feels like this new person that's in front of you. And you know, I can look back now, not when it was in it. I honestly could have seen it when I was in it. Right? But I can. Yeah, but I can look back now and see, oh my gosh, that that shift that I went through was so important was so crucial that I develop this, this new awareness, this sense of better sense of connection to myself. There is like so much new beauty and just newness, but of course when you're in it, you're like of this newness, this shift this changes is bad and scary. And you know, you put all these meanings to it and create the story about it. And before you know it you're like yes, everything is shit my whole life shit and like I am now this terrible person. And it's like, oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah. But it's so I know it's so scary because I think you hit the nail on the head. We go through these shifts and we really convince ourselves. This is bad. And then I think art art instinct, right is to not be with it, because it's like, but this isn't good. And I need to fix this. And I can't allow myself to be here. And it's like, but that's oftentimes what we need, right?

25:12

Very much so. And something to add to that, when it comes to the concept of anxiety is those who are grieving. And if you tend to have more OCD tendencies, chances are that productivity is going to just increase to the sky. So there will be a lot of movement towards not tending to the feelings in the experiences in order to let go or in order to be present with grief. But moving out of it externally, and hyper folks, hyper focusing, hyper fixating on work on working out extensively, moving your body into a different position, controlling your food, controlling your diet, so that that hyper anxious state tends to rise. And I think that's something that when people are inside of the grief experience, and they're already more prone to anxiety, they really have to be careful what starts to happen, you know, are they moving into hyper fixation? Are they displacing the feelings of grief on to their anxiety and hyper focused attention to other things?

Shannon Jackson  26:18

Yeah. Oh, that's so good. I'm so glad that you said that. Okay, now my brain is going to this place of with grief. Are there some things that I think you've, you've hit on this, but I'm just curious what your thoughts are? Are there things that you would say, like, avoid this? If you're going through grief, like, this will not be helpful? Yeah,

26:45

yeah. I think when, especially in side of the therapy process, or inside of the process of healing, if you move towards forcing yourself to go through grief, it's not helpful. We don't want to force any of that. If someone says, it's going to feel a lot better to talk about it, kind of like we're having a conversation about it. But we're not saying that. Right? I would say, if someone says it's gonna feel a lot better to talk about it, and you're not ready to talk about it, don't there are ways around it, so you can still feel into it. So do not force yourself to do anything inside of the grief process to if you're not ready to look at people's pictures, again, if you're not ready to toss away clothes, if you are not ready to release items, do not do it. You know, some people will say that, well, it's better if you just let that go. And you move forward. No, no, take your time. Even if that means a year or two or three, what you can do inside of that, if you're having a hard time, if you're noticing you're having a hard time is, is bring up the topic in whatever way that looks like maybe it's just to drop into a friend or drop into a therapist that says, hey, I realized that I kind of want to let some of this stuff go, but I can't. Can you help me with that? Can we be in conversation with that. So do not force do not let go or throw away if it's not the right time to just really be with yourself. Because they sometimes think people want to make, like, they want to quicken the experience. They want to eat it up. And you know, some people look at me when they come to me for grief, whether it's the loss of a spouse or again, anything. And I look at them, and they say how long is this going to take? Yeah. And I say, I honestly don't know. It's your own timeline, then we'll figure

Shannon Jackson  28:42

it out together. That's not the right answer, Michelle?

28:47

No, right. Why are you telling me that?

Shannon Jackson  28:50

Give me two months, three months, and I'm gonna be over this. I know, I, as you're talking, I was thinking, you know, growing up, I had this, this aunt and she lost a child at a really young age. And she like, kept his bedroom intact. For Yes, longest time. And I remember even as a kid, you know, people would have their opinions and would say, you know, she just needs to get rid of that stuff. And as a kid, I thought, how can you say that? You know, how can you feel that way that this is how she's processing the grief and it is healthy for her. And I think that's important to you to like you said this right that it's going to look differently for everyone and you have to really honor what feels good and right for you and not trying to forest that because that forest thing. She very well could have gone up into his room and gotten rid of all of his stuff and would that have made their grief go away?

29:59

No. You know, the repressing of grief is one of the worst things that we can do. And you brought up something beautiful just then that reminded me of something else, which is the, the spiritual experience that we have with grief, like who's to say that she didn't go up to that room and talk to his soul and create a, a memorable relation ship with him in a different form. And, and I'm all about, you know, in, if this doesn't resonate with you leave it, you don't have to, you don't have to take what I'm about to say, but talking to the souls of those who have transitioned, can you know, maintaining a relationship with them, you know, talking to them about how your day has been, and sharing with them a really important thought that no one else knows, you know, it's almost like talking to a higher self talking to God talking to source energy, whatever anyone would want to call it. And if you're agnostic, of course, that wouldn't relate to you in this moment. But you can keep you can keep a journal, you can still talk to the the essence of someone who's transitioned. And so yes, you know, to your friends who have that experience, it's like, well, what if that's kind of the living energy of the person who has transitioned and they want to keep it. And I think some grief specialists might tell you that that's not a healthy thing. And everyone's entitled to their own opinion here. But I will say, from my perspective, that whatever brings that feeling, and sense of well being to your body, is helpful. Now, of course, if someone is to do that, and that's all their life is, you know, that would be an unhealthy fixation. But that's not what we're referring to. We're talking about just honoring their spirit and keeping them alive in different ways.

Shannon Jackson  31:44

Yeah, yeah. I love that you thought brought up the spirituality component? And I think it is not for everyone, but I think if it is, or if you've had thoughts, if you've, if you've wanted to go there, that is something that also was so incredibly helpful for me, you know, with my, my grandfather, he was sort of the first person that I lost, and it was so hard. And my mom taught me, right, like, he's not gone, you can still talk to him. And you can still have this, this relationship. And I at first thought, Mom, you're a bit crazy. This is, this is a bit woowoo. But she has always connected to him in that way. And, and she would tell me these beautiful stories, and I'm like, okay, maybe it's not. So maybe, maybe I can give it a shot. And it was incredibly helpful for me. And I think, you know, it's just tapping in to what is helpful for you, and allowing yourself to go to some places that might not feel so comfortable, but might be really helpful. Yeah, so Oh, my gosh, this is such a big and can be heavy topic. But I feel like you've brought a lot of lightness to it. I feel like just, I know, people tell me this all the time. And I'm like, but I love your voice. You are so calming. Like you're just so helpful. And I love everything that you share. So if people want to connect with you, Michelle, and learn from you, where can people find you? Yeah, so

33:15

I am on Instagram therapy dot with dot Sheli on tick tock as well, same name. I have a website. If you're curious to know more about me and the practice that I do. I do do meditations on Insight Timer. So that's fun. I enjoy that. And to share one more message with our listeners today. I would say that if you're going through grief to remind yourself that you hurt so much because you love that grief is love. That's all it is. And if we can remind ourselves that we can find joy again, we really can.

Shannon Jackson  33:54

Alright, no better way to end this. Thank you again, Michelle. I really appreciate you. Thanks