Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) for Anxiety With Tom Parkes
- Shannon Jackson
- Jun 1, 2024
- 3 min read
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) for Anxiety With Tom Parkes
On this episode of A Healthy Push podcast, I'm joined by Tom Parkes. Tom is a psychotherapist based in Connecticut, who is passionate about the process-based clinical approach, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) in his work with clients. Tom is also the host of the podcast Mentally Flexible, where he interviews psychologists, researchers, and others on a range of mental health focused topics - so be sure to check that out!
Tom and I explored how ACT can be used to support those with anxiety, panic and agoraphobia, as well as a number of other mental health struggles. I was blown away when reading into ACT, as this is the type of work I undertook in my own therapy journey without realizing, so when I came across Tom on Instagram I knew I wanted to have him on the podcast! This is a subject I've not covered before, and might be new to many of you reading, so let's get started with the basics!
What is ACT Therapy?
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is a type of mindful psychotherapy that blends mindfulness strategies with behavioral techniques to help individuals live more meaningful lives. It's a combination of committing to values driven action and making space for the difficult thoughts and feelings that can show up for us along the way, when facing the hard stuff. In the full podcast episode, we explore what this looks like in more detail, so stay tuned.
What Is The Difference Between CBT and ACT Therapy?
Tom and I chatted about CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy), one of the most well known approaches in the therapy world. CBT primarily targets negative thoughts and beliefs, aiming to identify and challenge them to promote more positive thinking patterns and behaviors. Similarly to ACT, it's a versatile therapy that can be used to support people with a range of mental heath conditions such as anxiety, depression and OCD.
On the other hand, ACT takes a different approach by emphasizing acceptance of uncomfortable thoughts and feelings, rather than trying to change or eliminate them.
So, while CBT is all about changing your thoughts, ACT is about changing your relationship with them. Both therapies can be super helpful tools when working to recover, so it's important to remember there is no one size fits all approach and lean into what works for you.
Values Driven Action In Anxiety Recovery
A big part of ACT is action - it's in the name! ACT therapy for anxiety focuses on getting in touch with what really matters to us, and how we want to show up in the world before taking those first steps. That means you're not just doing stuff for the sake of doing stuff; you're doing stuff that aligns with your core beliefs and inspires you. This can honestly make such a difference when facing the hard stuff!
Much of what I teach, especially in my Panic to Peace program, is doing the inner work and re-aligning with our values before diving into exposures. Getting your life back in a way that also feels good and is motivating for you can be super inspiring and helpful in anxiety recovery.
Paired with acceptance and compassion for the difficult feelings we experience, values driven action can be a powerful tool.
There was honestly so much goodness in this episode, and we covered so much more, so don't forget to tune in for the whole conversation wherever you get your podcasts.
Feeling like you've tried everything but you're still struggling with lots of anxious thoughts, symptoms, panic attacks, and fears? Take my FREE 60-minute masterclass today and learn 5 shifts that will actually help you to overcome anxiety, panic disorder, and agoraphobia. And I promise, you won't hear any of the usual stuff from me - like doing breathing exercises, grounding practices, cutting out caffeine, and doing more exposures. Let's get you the peace and freedom you deserve without it being so hard!
Check out my masterclasses here and start experiencing lots more peace, joy, & freedom!
TRANSCRIPT
00:00.16
ahealthypush
All right today I have another really special guest with me his name is Tom and I'm very excited for you to meet him I came across his Instagram and was like ooh ooh. This is so good I know I have to have him on the podcast. So. Tom Parks is a therapist in specifically an acceptance and commitment therapist and trainer and we're actually going to talk about this modality which I'm really excited about so before we even go there. Tom welcome to a healthy push podcast.
00:30.98
Tom
Thanks for having me I Really appreciate it.
00:34.40
ahealthypush
Yeah, I'm really excited. So let's just start with who's Tom tell us a little bit about you.
00:42.58
Tom
Yeah, it's always so such a complex question because we're such different people depending on the context of our lives but professionally I'm a therapist and trainer like you said I am a huge Axe nerd. Um, ah. Outside of work I Love spending time with my wife my dog and hiking and playing sports and I'm a musician on the side. So I like doing that I have my own podcast and called mentally flexible and I really enjoy getting to speak with people in the field and have that as a little side. Project. Yeah I don't know I could go into more or less depth. But that's like that's a starting point.
01:20.92
ahealthypush
Yeah, yeah, no, it sounds like we have a little bit in common. It's always really cool to hear people outside of just professionally what they do and like clearly your creative being which is really awesome. So.
01:33.48
Tom
M.
01:36.39
ahealthypush
We're going to talk about AcT and I know like you said you're a big AcT nerd so I can clearly tell you love it. You're like super committed to it. So let's just start with the very basic because I'm sure people are like what the heck is it. So what is AcT Tom
01:51.98
Tom
Yeah, it's funny these moments when I've been on the receiving end of someone telling me, it's not act. It's act I don't get that hung up upon it. But if anyone's interested in diving into the act world typically people call it acts and a reason why is.
02:07.82
ahealthypush
Okay.
02:11.79
Tom
Um, a big part of act is action. It's learning how to build a rich and meaningful life guided by your values and because that can be a reason why people struggle doing that is when we try to move towards what matters in life usually.
02:14.58
ahealthypush
A.
02:28.38
Tom
Really difficult thoughts and feelings and experiences and memories and sensations show up and so half of act is learning how to really cultivate values-driven action and the other half is learning how to kind of make space for all the distress and discomfort in. Uncomfortable experiences and stuff on your own skin that shows up along the way.
02:46.66
ahealthypush
Ah, okay, so there's so much to dig into because when I learned about act I was like honestly blown away I don't know like if a therapist ever had this like special training but clearly like this is work that I did when I was.
03:03.60
Tom
Me.
03:05.90
ahealthypush
And my own therapy journey and so I was like oh my gosh This is hugely how I healed So Let's start with first I'd love to hear you explain? What's the difference between act and cbt because I think that might help people really understand. What it is a little bit more.
03:23.42
Tom
Yeah I'd Also at any point welcome and would love to hear a little bit about your journey too and hear about your stuff and maybe we can talk about how act might have applied in that I don't know if I'm the best person to talk too much about.
03:31.65
ahealthypush
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
03:39.37
Tom
The overlaps and differences with cbt because I've never really dove too deep into traditional cbt training but 1 major difference. So one difference between cbt and act is.
04:17.77
Tom
The way that we understand and work with thoughts and from my understanding and more traditional cbt. There's work that's done around kind of understanding your thoughts and then trying to notice what are your I don't even know what what language they use. Cbt distorted or maybe dysfunctional or negative or problematic thoughts and learning how to challenge them a bit and develop new thoughts that might influence behavior in a more helpful way and while there's.
04:41.18
ahealthypush
Ah.
04:48.14
ahealthypush
Yeah.
04:51.27
Tom
Maybe a little bit of that underlying process process happening in act. We really try to stay out of labeling thoughts as good or bad or functional or dysfunction or distorted or healthy and we really aim to.
05:02.63
ahealthypush
Yep.
05:06.88
Tom
Instead just get some distance from our thoughts and build awareness of the thoughts that are running through our heads. It's almost like listeners could do this right now or you could do this where a lot of times when people come into therapy their thoughts are like their hand their fingers and they're imagine what it's like when your thoughts if you put your hand right in front of your eyes.
05:26.49
ahealthypush
Oh yeah, not comfortable, right? It feels like consuming.
05:26.66
Tom
But what is that like and yeah, yes. Yeah, where you're sort of seeing the world through your thoughts and act we call that cognitive fusion where there's sort of this melding of your awareness in your thoughts where you don't really have um where they where thoughts are experienced as like literal truth and rules that you must Obey and.
05:37.46
ahealthypush
A.
05:53.38
Tom
What we're trying to do is move that hand away. So if you're doing this exercise you can move your hand kind of out and off to the side and what's that like when your hand's out there.
06:00.77
ahealthypush
Yeah, they're less right in your face. You can see more clearly. What's actually in front of you. It's not just the thoughts.
06:08.94
Tom
Yes, and did did the thoughts change at all. Yeah yeah, so.
06:13.63
ahealthypush
No yeah, you don't and you don't need to change them right? It's just getting some distance from them.
06:21.53
Tom
Yes, and so in act we're trying to work on this process of cognitive diffusion where we learn to get some space from our thoughts and see them as thoughts see them as chatter running through our heads and then from that place instead of.
06:32.89
ahealthypush
A.
06:38.30
Tom
Trying to understand what's good or bad about your thoughts we move towards a place of what thoughts are helpful or unhelpful in moving us towards what matters in life and so we don't enact. We don't move towards debating thoughts or figuring out. What's true or false we move towards.
06:48.38
ahealthypush
A here.
06:57.49
Tom
Building Awareness of our thoughts and then using the ones that are helpful that move us towards our values and letting the ones that are unhelpful sort of just kind of be there and let them arise and fall naturally instead of trying to control them and so I think in traditional cbt there'd be a different stance on that there might be some I've Heard. Describe it as like so your hand starts in front of your eyes. Ah you get some distance from it to see which ones are good or bad and you replace them with maybe better ones and then you move your hand back in front of your eyes and I I don't want to put that down I'm sure that.
07:27.64
ahealthypush
Um, yeah.
07:31.75
Tom
There obviously is evidence that that can help people but in act we just approach it differently.
07:36.73
ahealthypush
It's so interesting of course because I'm just thinking of my own journey and I you know I work with a lot of people who are struggling with like severe anxiety right? Panic Agoraphobia. And I think what's really challenging for a lot of people who are struggling with anxiety disorders is that they have. They're very analytical. They're like very good at problem solving and like using those analyzing skills. But what I find. And especially in people who have done a lot of cbt work is that that sort of is the opposite of being helpful for them because they're always analyzing like am I doing this right? like am I challenging my thoughts in the most helpful way like am I you know can I. Can I change my thoughts like is there a right way to do it and you can get so stuck in that so very quickly and that's why love act because it's like that's not what we're trying to do here. We are just trying to let the thoughts be have an awareness of them.
08:23.81
Tom
Yes, yes.
08:40.20
ahealthypush
Let them be but like not go down the rabbit holes of analyzing and trying to change and challenge them and something I hear a lot right? is people will say well my therapist said to me and this is not a knock against therapist at all, but my therapist said to me, you know? well. Has it ever happened before you know this said fear. Whatever it is like I'm afraid that I'm going to panic and pass out and you know they'll get that challenging question that I think is very cbt Well has it ever happened before and I'm like my gosh. It's just not helpful.
09:17.10
Tom
I.
09:18.57
ahealthypush
Because I'm like it doesn't matter whether it's happened before or not you know, anxiety is not very logical. It's not like you're just going to say Well, it's never happened before so therefore we don't need to worry about it and we can just on with it like we don't need to have these thoughts anymore. It's just like dropping that we don't need to.
09:30.94
Tom
Yes, yes.
09:37.49
ahealthypush
Try to figure out our thoughts. We don't need to dig into them.
09:41.61
Tom
Yes, yeah, the the trap of the problem solving mind is so difficult so easy to get into and so hard to get out of it's like fallen in Quicksand and that comes from a ah functional place in our evolutionary history that. Our ability to problem Solve was something that was really functional for us in a world filled with threats and it still works now where if you um, you know touch a hot pan on the stove and you realize that that's dangerous and that hurts you can.
10:00.23
ahealthypush
Death.
10:12.66
Tom
Your mind can guide you towards a place where you just never do that again. Avoid that for the rest of your life and that's a helpful thing but what happens a route of suffering from an act perspective is that type of problem solving approach gets turned inwards on our own thoughts and feelings and sensations.
10:17.75
ahealthypush
And.
10:29.88
Tom
And people end up in these battles under their own skin with stuff that is never going to go away I mean from an emotional level. We're meant to have the full range of an um. Of emotions and so if your mind targets anxiety or sadness or grief or shame as a problem to be solved or something to avoid your life more and more gets centered around struggling with this.
10:52.00
ahealthypush
Earth.
10:54.87
Tom
Part of you that is never going to go away and you're just going to get more stuck in it or you're going to get so good at skirting around it and avoiding it that your life starts to get really small because a lot of the things that matter to us bring on difficult emotions and from a cognitive level.
11:06.97
ahealthypush
Yeah.
11:11.32
Tom
Once a thought is in your head it's in there. There is no delete button in your mind and anyone who struggles with anxiety or Ocd or panic knows what it's like to have a new difficult thought pop up and. Want so badly to get away from it and want it to go away and only to realize that it only gets more central and stronger the more that you do that right? like you could think of. We can put a new thought in listeners' heads right now like um think of I guess.
11:29.99
ahealthypush
Oh yeah.
11:37.58
ahealthypush
And everyone's like please don't do it. Tom please don't do this. But.
11:42.12
Tom
No I I won't I won't do something distressing like all right? So I have a golden retriever picture a golden retriever wearing a sombrero hat um playing soccer. Okay, so see if you can put put that in your head a golden retriever and a sombrero hat playing soccer. Now that that's in your head I will give you $1000000 if you can delete it from your head try right now I'll give you a little few moments. Get it out of your head you realize obviously you realize is once something's in your mind there is no delete button and.
12:07.18
ahealthypush
Ah.
12:16.00
ahealthypush
M.
12:19.29
Tom
For anyone struggling with anxiety or Ocd or panic or any of these it. We just kind of know what that game is like the more that you try to go down that road. It's just an unwinnable game inside of your own head. Um, so and I just rant it a little bit but.
12:31.98
ahealthypush
Yeah, no, that was so good and you feel like I think a place that a lot of people go to in a place that I used to go to was oh no I'm having this new what seemed like scarier thought. But really it wasn't It was just like a new and different take on it but it was like. This new scary thought and this means that I'm getting worse and therefore yes I need to get ahold of this like I need to make this go away I can't I shouldn't be thinking this I can't be thinking this this causes me so much distress Delete Delay Delete and now you can't and you just end up feeding it so much and.
12:54.24
Tom
Yes.
13:10.29
ahealthypush
You know a very specific. Yeah I mean a couple I can think of of course this happened for me relating to panic. It was like what if you panic what if you pass out this is like my go to always and I couldn't it was like I couldn't ever turn it off and of course I tried I was like always fighting it.
13:21.68
Tom
Of me.
13:29.98
ahealthypush
And another one I with my anxiety always experienced a lot of digestive issues and so I had this constant fear that like I was going to need to go to the bathroom and there wouldn't be a place to go to the bathroom and it was like this these thoughts it would they would shift didn't just change and become different and I felt like scarier.
13:33.68
Tom
Oh.
13:39.19
Tom
A.
13:49.66
ahealthypush
And of course I feel like your normal human reaction to the thoughts is get rid of it like but I can't deal like I cannot handle having these thoughts and I think what's so beautiful about act is it's like that's that's not what we're going to try to do. We need to actually recognize that this is what you're trying to do right? This is part of it like recognizing you are trying to fight you are trying to get rid of and of course it makes sense that you're trying to because it's uncomfortable. The thoughts bring very uncomfortable things with them but continuing to fight and try to get rid of is just like feeding it.
14:27.51
Tom
Yes.
14:29.17
ahealthypush
And causing so much I always felt like what more like is there ever a stopping point and I didn't feel like there was ever a stopping point like it would always morph and become something bigger and more ech.
14:42.85
Tom
Totally Well, it sounds like something that a process you've gone through is something I've gone through and I help clients go through it's being able to a lot of times when people come into Therapy they're really caught in the grips of what we call experiential avoidance where a lot of their life is being guided by.
15:01.20
ahealthypush
Faith.
15:01.39
Tom
Like a control agenda spending a lot of time trying to control what's happening under our own skins or happening in our lives primarily what's happening under our own skin the kind of thoughts that we're having the feelings the sensations, the memories and it's like it's like more and more of your time is being spent in a tug of war with your own inner world.
15:11.66
ahealthypush
Here here.
15:20.44
Tom
And what we try to pivot into from an act perspective is moving out of a control agenda and into an acceptance agenda and some people don't like that word acceptance and so another word people might like is a willingness agenda.
15:29.56
ahealthypush
Yeah.
15:35.56
Tom
It's like we're trying to move away from control and into a willingness to experience. Whatever shows up inside of us at any given moment. It's like you could imagine that we're all in tune with this one knob on your chest and it's your distress knob and so when. Something challenging shows up under our own skin that distress knob goes up and our our mind's first Instinct is to figure out how do I turn this knob back down and there's a lot of good ways to do that in the short term you could drink you could have you could cancel Plans. You can distract yourself. There's.
16:05.69
ahealthypush
M.
16:09.64
Tom
There's a bunch of things that work in the short term. But I think we all know the more you rely on those things in the short term. It only amplifies that underlying process that's going on and so what I work on with clients from an act perspective is learning how to. Understand and appreciate that distress and hold it with some compassion but focus more on this other knob that you've forgotten about which is your willingness knob and so can we go on a journey together where we work on increasing our willingness to experience the distress whenever it shows up instead of trying to control it. And sort of a core thing that we're doing from an act perspective.
16:48.70
ahealthypush
Ah, just like I remember all this stuff in my journey and just like it was so hard doing this work. But I always say where you have to choose the Hard. That's actually going to get you to where you want to be and like it was so hard for me to. It really feels like you're just leaving yourself so entirely exposed to anxiety like I am just going to actually let this come along I'm going to let it be here I'm going to like let the thoughts the feelings and we'll just see and like.
17:10.20
Tom
Yes.
17:26.46
ahealthypush
That willingness right? I know it's so hard I'm glad you used that term because I know a lot of people struggle with acceptance just that term I think and. It's just it really truly is and I say this is work that I even do now I'm sure you do this right? We always have to sort of work on increasing our willingness to face like uncomfortable things. It's not a just a you know anxiety recovery specific thing. Um I'm.
17:44.92
Tom
No.
17:57.43
ahealthypush
Interested I Know of course act can be used for many different things you mentioned of course with the I feel like really tough emotions like anxiety but also like with grief I Imagine this is something that comes in really handy when somebody's struggling with grief.
18:14.42
Tom
That.
18:16.37
ahealthypush
Are there other like um things that you use act for with clients.
18:23.70
Tom
Yeah, me personally a lot of my caseload I work with a lot of people struggling with anxiety Ocd umbrella-ish challenges. Um.
18:31.75
ahealthypush
In here.
18:36.71
Tom
The cool thing about act though is it's a transdiagnostic approach and if people don't know what that means it means it's sort of targets. It doesn't It's not made for any individual specific diagnosis or syndrome. We don't really use that language and that framework and act. Ah.
18:48.18
ahealthypush
And.
18:54.89
Tom
Because Act focuses more on the underlying processes that lead to suffering or that lead to flourishing that are common across all challenges and so if you look up act for whatever the challenges. It's being used for literally everything. Um.
19:08.85
ahealthypush
Yeah.
19:14.86
Tom
It's being used in professional sports. It's being used with the world health organization and refugee camps. It's being used for musicians. It's being used for for everything because I could sort of take us through those there 6 processes that we're working on an act that are kind of core and fundamental to. Most human challenges and so we've already touched on a bunch here today. 1 is just the way we relate to our own thoughts like the more that we are sort of fused with our thoughts and seeing the world through them. Ah the more that.
19:38.50
ahealthypush
E.
19:48.25
Tom
Challenges We tend to face and the more that we can distance ou ourselves from our thoughts and see them as thoughts and use. What's helpful and leave the rest the the more we're going to kind of move freely in the world and not be so driven by our mind's commands. There's the way we relate to what we just talked about the more that we. Tend to avoid our own emotions and sensations going on under our own skin The more challenges we face and the more that we're willing to experience those compassionately the usually the more fully we can show up in our lives then there's um. How much present moment. Awareness Do we have like how how much can we actually be here right now in this moment flexibly and fluidly because flexibly without ah, flexibly and focused flexibly without the focus is sort of kind of what you might see and.
20:24.61
ahealthypush
Is.
20:42.99
Tom
But we'd call Adhd It's a lot of like bouncing around to different things in the present moment and focused without the flexibility is like a kid playing video games. That's so locked in that the house could be on fire and they're not going to notice so the ability to sort of be here right now. Focused and flexibly is another one.
20:50.29
ahealthypush
Right.
21:00.39
Tom
Because people tend to struggle when there's an over-dominance of being in the past and future in our minds I think we can all relate to that right? like there's some value in going to the past to learn from our experiences and process but too much of that is not helpful.
21:06.24
ahealthypush
Yes.
21:18.48
Tom
And going into the future to be able to plan and organize our lives and set goals is helpful but too much of that is also not helpful. So finding this balance between primarily showing up in the here and now and using the past and and future consciously is a process we work on.
21:35.26
ahealthypush
A.
21:37.75
Tom
Another one in act is kind of a little bit harder to explain but the way I understand it is the way that we identify inside and 1 way people tend to identify that causes. Challenges is an overidentification with the stories. About ourselves like our conceptualized self like I'm a bad person or I'm not smart or I'm not likable or on the other end. Ah I'm a good person or I'm the best or I'm you know whatever it is the more that we are sort of fused and caught up in those.
22:05.69
ahealthypush
The.
22:13.79
Tom
Stories and parts of our identities in our heads the more we struggle because they sort of Distort. Um, how clearly we can understand ourselves in the world and so what we're trying to work on in act is learning how to sort of reconnect with this more spiritual witnessing. Awareness part of ourselves the sort of light behind it all that is none of those things or all of those things depending on which way you look at it that just is that our our sort of awareness learning how to identify more with that awareness inside than the individual parts that we tell ourselves.
22:41.21
ahealthypush
Yeah.
22:51.60
Tom
Um, there's some like cool overlap with ifafs there I think um yeah, and then the last 2 parts of act are more those behavioral parts. It's learning how to get in touch with what really matters to us. We call them values in act. But it's really just like.
22:52.40
ahealthypush
Yeah I was just thinking that.
23:09.16
Tom
What really matters to us. How do we want to show up in the world and this is different than goals because our values are things that are never accomplished. You can never fully achieve your goals. So like maybe I have a goal of seeing 25 clients a week but my value under that is like.
23:10.98
ahealthypush
A.
23:28.89
Tom
Helping people and showing up and being curious and present with other people and compassionate and those things are never going to end and so they're sort of the soil that then our our values grow out of and the last part is just how we actually put that into practice committed action. How do we actually commit. To behaviors that are guided by our values and in act we look at all 6 of those processes through a model of like the act Hexaflex and from a therapist's point of view every time I'm working with a client I am um.
23:54.12
ahealthypush
Here.
24:02.70
Tom
So almost like this little game where we're dancing around those 6 processes and fluidly like weaving them all together to increase as a whole what we call psychological flexibility.
24:14.70
ahealthypush
Yeah, gosh, there's so much goodness. Um I am so intrigued I'm thinking when you do this work with clients of course I Love the value based stuff there because they feel like there's so much there that. People often have a ton of goals right? like I want to be able to get back in the car and start driving and I want to be able to to and I think it can be so much more helpful to really Define. What are my values and and using that to help you work toward. Getting your life back in a way that also feels good and is motivating for you and is not just like we're just taking these steps to check them off the box and hopefully recover so I'm curious with. Act I Assume part of the values work is creating this these shifts like the behavior changes in a way that's like type kind of like exposure work am I on the right path here. No.
25:23.28
Tom
Maybe just say a little bit more like give me a double click on that for me.
25:26.43
ahealthypush
Yeah, yeah I know I was like a little bit going off on a rambling tangent. Yeah I'm curious. Okay, so specifically say you have a client that you're working with that is struggling with an anxiety disorder like a panic disorder.
25:31.42
Tom
So no, it's okay, there's something important in there I Just want to really understand what you're saying.
25:45.70
ahealthypush
Panic disorder and they're really struggling to do a lot of just day to day things. Do you use act in a way to help them do exposure type work. Um, using these these things within act.
25:50.55
Tom
M.
25:57.62
Tom
A a.
26:04.50
Tom
Totally Yes, Yes, Yes, yes, great question. Um, yeah, because whether it's where a panic disorder or any other challenge that I'm working with with a client. All this stuff we were talking about before about being willing to feel your own pain or discomfort or anxiety and like be aware and allow your difficult thoughts. Why the heck would anybody do that if not if it wasn't for that opening up other opportunities and so all of that.
26:27.45
ahealthypush
Right.
26:37.10
Tom
Like being willing to experience our discomfort is in the service of what matters like that's the the fuel that allows us to do those things and so yeah, when it comes to exposure work. Um or moving towards any.
26:44.51
ahealthypush
A hair.
26:54.27
Tom
Let me say that again. So when it comes to exposure work the more that it can be tied to what actually matters to a person. The more buy-in that there's going to be. It's like um values en act as sort of the difference between imagine it's like a really really cold. You're from Maine right? I think I read that.
27:10.73
ahealthypush
Yeah, yeah.
27:13.75
Tom
All right? So so the water's probably still really cold right now right? Yes, ah yes I'm from Connecticut so I would see it's you know similarish yeah, so imagine that you were going to just go swim.
27:18.64
ahealthypush
Always all year round. Ah yeah, you know.
27:32.76
Tom
Tour into the middle of a lake right now in Maine and swim back think about how like unpleasant and cold and much you wouldn't want to do that. Okay now think about that same behavior but your I don't want to hopefully this is okay say that but you have a child right.
27:39.45
ahealthypush
Who.
27:50.25
ahealthypush
Yep.
27:51.60
Tom
Okay, what if your child was out there and really needed you to go savor or him or them. Yes, okay same behavior. But what's different about that.
27:53.68
ahealthypush
And in a split second when even think about it.
28:02.10
ahealthypush
Oh I have something that's really important to me a big motivating factor in why I would do it.
28:08.34
Tom
Is any of the discomfort of the coldness going to go away throughout that process. Yes, but that willingness to experience it just skyrockets now I know that's an extreme example. But.
28:12.74
ahealthypush
But no, it would be awful.
28:22.45
ahealthypush
Yeah, right I was going to say you're throwing my child out in the middle of a lake Tom ah I'm okay with it. She's a great swimmer.
28:28.50
Tom
I I know that that's an extreme example but I use that to just sort of really drive the point home that that same dynamic is what we're working on. It's like what is available to us in the present moment that really matters to you that you would. Rather put your attention and your focus and life energy towards that is going to allow our willingness to have the discomfort that's with us there and it happens in small ways too like you know I've struggled with anxiety a lot throughout my life and so like on a morning like this where I have going to be on a podcast. The moment I wake up my anxiety kicks in It's you know like oh man I got this today like I hope it's going to go but my mind starts chattering the anxiety starts coming up and through the work that I've been able to do I'm not perfect with it. But most of the time now I can just like oh hello anxiety welcome I see you. Hello mine telling me not to mess up and that maybe you should prepare more like all this stuff I see you thanks for trying to like help me out. But um, I'm just going to kind of feel this and be with these thoughts right now and instead focus use my morning focusing on. What matters to me which is doing kind of like my routine spending time with my dog like talking with my wife before she leaves actually being present with my workout and maybe in the past before I did act the moment that that anxiety popped up I would have wanted to get away from it. So badly that my mind's options would have been spent.
29:51.78
ahealthypush
B.
30:02.82
Tom
2 hours before the podcast overpreparing or cancel it. You know like those would be the mind solutions to that if I wasn't willing to feel it.
30:03.90
ahealthypush
Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, oh I like everything that you've shared is so relatable I think you know I'm curious because I know people are that are listening are like okay you've personally Struggled. Do you feel comfortable sharing a little bit about. Personally what how you've struggled with anxiety because I think that's so helpful for people to hear.
30:33.92
Tom
Oh yeah, I mean how much time you got ah ah um.
30:37.30
ahealthypush
We have all the time now roughly 10 minutes dumb can you can you shorten it abbreviate it.
30:43.53
Tom
Yeah, ah yeah I mean I don't even know where to begin it's like yeah I mean I think I've always just been leaned on the anxious side since I was really young and um I think it wasn't until my.
30:54.94
ahealthypush
E.
31:02.80
Tom
Early-ish Mid twenty s that I've really understood it and found more helpful ways to work with it and what is cool now is a lot of all that same anxiety stuff is still there. It's just my work on not struggling with it and focusing more on building things around it like my life has just gotten so much more richer around it that that same stuff is there but there's so much more Ah and I know I'm not I'm not trying to um.
31:29.59
ahealthypush
A yeah.
31:39.56
Tom
Move away like or I don't even know I don't even know where to go with this like it shows up now still like I give trainings. Ah I give act trainings and every time I've probably not specifically act trainings. But I've probably given 50 trainings around the country at this point over the past five years but every time that same those same feelings creep up the week before and the same kinds of thoughts and the morning of it builds and builds and builds until I get about to the first break and then it kind of naturally goes down but when I was first starting to do this.
32:08.85
ahealthypush
B.
32:14.14
Tom
I mean I So I saw that as such a problem that needed to be solved and such a like yeah such a problem with me instead of just part of what it means to be a human when you do something that matters to you.
32:24.30
ahealthypush
Yes, yes, you're a yeah, you're like this is who I am I'm just an anxious person like there's something wrong with me I can't I can't be this way I don't want to be this way and it's like well there is so much That's normal and makes sense about your experience. Like especially right giving talks and being in all these new places and situations and being put on the spot and like I always say to people so much with different things that they'll share and like can we can we pause for a minute does that make sense that anxiety showed up does it make sense that you. You know, maybe even experience the panic attack instead of just looking at everything every time anxiety pops up is being problematic. It's like that's the problem and that's what I didn't realize for so long was like literally it was a friend that said to me.
33:09.62
Tom
Yes, yes, yes.
33:20.52
ahealthypush
Shannon I think is so problematic because you're always trying to fight it and I was like what like what do you mean and I remember I took that in and I was like you're right? You're right? But like I always felt like I have to fight this.
33:25.81
Tom
A.
33:39.76
ahealthypush
Sort of side of me because similar to you I you know was anxious from a very young age and I always saw that as being problematic rather than. Giving myself some grace right? letting myself be human and and acknowledging a lot of times when anxiety popped up even as a young kid it made a heck of a lot of sense. Why it popped up. So yeah.
33:59.21
Tom
Totally Yeah yeah, thanks for sharing some of that. Yeah and it's just such a shame that we are all sort of conditioned. Not all of us but many of us are conditioned to conceal these parts of us.
34:12.12
ahealthypush
M.
34:14.46
Tom
And so everyone's kind of walking around silently suffering in their own little bubble pretending that they're the only ones but the truth is is everybody struggles with mental health stuff. There really isn't you know that's a cool thing about act is traditional Western Psychology is founded on this assumption that you know.
34:17.23
ahealthypush
Right.
34:33.33
Tom
Difficult thoughts and feelings and suffering is a sign of pathology or a sign of not being normal. Um, but Act is more grounded in is like we all suffer. It's part of being human. We all hurt and a lot of our suffering is stuff.
34:37.67
ahealthypush
Yeah.
34:48.69
Tom
Outside of our control and a lot of our suffering is stuff we choose to bring on. You're a parent how much more anxiety. Do you have now having a child than you did before like there's so much more to worry about or if you're a dog parent like and that's part of it is just when when things matter to us. We're going to get anxious about it because once you know like.
34:55.63
ahealthypush
Yeah.
35:08.23
Tom
Kind of goes into the weeds of how our mind works but you can't have something you care about without your mind also being aware of losing it those 2 things go together. They're two sides of the same coin and so the more you actually build things that matter to you the more. You also build the flip side of that which is like.
35:18.33
ahealthypush
Um.
35:26.89
Tom
Lost in things going wrong and so your choices are either to accept that and go out and let what matters to you steer the ship and take along all that stuff with companies that comes with it or keep your life really small to protect against that.
35:41.90
ahealthypush
Yeah, literally. It's so interesting because people will say to me I struggled with panic and agoraphobia for 15 years like it was ah absolutely terrible and people said you know were you afraid to become a parent and um, I'm always very honest like I didn't make the decision. It just happened. And they got it. It happened the way it did because I probably would have never made the decision. But honestly it was so interesting. How becoming a mom really shifted something in me that I learned in my anxiety recovery journey which was yes there is a lot to worry about right? There is a lot. Um, the stakes are sort of really high but that's even more of a reason to be more present and just connected and so when I had my daughter it was like I didn't experience the anxiety that maybe.
36:27.29
Tom
Yes.
36:36.82
ahealthypush
People would have anticipated or maybe I maybe was bracing myself a little bit for it was just like oh no, you are going to be as present and connected as possible because you have a very good reason to be and so yeah, that was an incredible like shift for me and.
36:46.48
Tom
A.
36:56.45
ahealthypush
And my husband gets upset sometimes because he's just like I swear you went the other way like you recovered and you don't worry. You don't play and you don't and I'm like of course they still have you know anxiety it it still pops up but it now I know I Just it's a very different relationship with it than it.
37:01.60
Tom
Ah.
37:05.61
Tom
He asked.
37:13.41
Tom
Yes, well it it really clarified in this direct and sincere way. What's important for you to focus on and I resonate with that so much too with you know my relationship with my wife and.
37:13.88
ahealthypush
And used to be.
37:22.42
ahealthypush
Yeah.
37:29.75
Tom
You know with my dog and close friends and especially even as a therapist that same thing you talked about shows up for me every time I sit with a client because this client is taking giving me this unique privilege to be. Be brought inside of this really important world of theirs and so when I'm sitting in the room with the client. It's like that's the only thing that matters to me is for me to be able to show up fully as a conscious human being and be present and be curious and be like a.
37:56.84
ahealthypush
Him.
38:07.78
Tom
Big oak tree just sitting in the ground that's going to be there and be sturdy for them and this is and and using act on myself and that's a big part of the act model is like act therapists doing this stuff themselves because you can only help a client with those processes to the extent that you do it themselves because if you're sitting there. Caught up in what you're going to have for lunch and like or running away from your own discomfort about something that they just said or not connected to why you do the work. It's kind of there's this like weird hypocrisy to the work and not that I'm perfect with it and you don't need to be perfect. But I think you need to maybe be earnest in your kind of.
38:28.20
ahealthypush
Um, right.
38:45.25
Tom
Your parallel journey with the client on it and so when I'm sitting there and I'm doing and I'm really focused and present and I get a difficult thought that pops up like did I just say the wrong thing I Need my work is be like to notice that thought allow it to be there and then.
38:59.89
ahealthypush
N.
39:02.90
Tom
Maybe it's helpful to share that with a client like hey I noticed when I So when I said that I had this thought pop up that that might not have been helpful like I just want to share kind of what's going on me what are your thoughts at that or if I get an uncomfortable feeling that's showing up instead of using my time talking myself out of it for this session.
39:16.10
ahealthypush
Staying.
39:20.19
Tom
I acknowledge it and I be with it and I let it move through me and it's this thing that can happen while you're also still there in the moment. Um, and yeah, the whole time I'm just grounded in like what matters most to me is just yeah I don't want to be repetitive but just being present curious open. Honest, real and those are like in the driver's seat and all the uncomfortable thoughts and feelings are passengers in the car on that session.
39:46.17
ahealthypush
Okay, well I'm sure people are sitting back thinking hey Tom can you be my therapist. But honestly I mean really I've had just so many conversations with people right? but we talk about.
39:58.76
Tom
Ah.
40:05.60
ahealthypush
You know, different modalities and different ways of approaching your struggleggs and I love ifs and you know learning more about act like I think these 2 modalities are so beautiful and you've just given it so much justice. So I really appreciate. You. Coming on and sharing everything that you have and and allowing us to learn a little bit more about Tom so if people want to find and connect with you and get some support from you where can they find you.
40:39.21
Tom
Well thanks for all those kind words and it was really cool connecting with you too and I appreciate your openness and vulnerability and I love the kind of vibe we had of that it was more of a conversation and I I Just it was great talking to you that time flew by um, yeah, people could find me.
40:48.33
ahealthypush
Yeah, yeah.
40:55.25
Tom
And Instagram at mentally flexible and that's the name of my podcast. So if you're interested in some of this act stuff look up mentally flexible and I'm sure you could find an episode that resonates with your challenges or what you're interested in. Some of it is more geared towards therapists and others are going to be just great for anyone to listen to? Um, yeah.
41:16.10
ahealthypush
Yeah, and I love I Love that by the way because I I noticed a lot of people who listen to your podcast are therapist and I think it's amazing that you're helping to educate and and train people on this because it is so immensely helpful So you're doing.
41:34.91
Tom
So oh thanks? Well, we're all, there's a romdas quote I Love if anyone knows rammdas and he says we're all walking each other home and so we're all, we're all going to the same place particular in the act world. But I think all of us in the helping profession and.
41:35.64
ahealthypush
Great stuff.
41:43.68
ahealthypush
Mm gap.
41:51.80
Tom
I have been so inspired and guided by people that have been doing this long before me and it's cool to be now part of the process of maybe inspiring some other people and so act is such an open source community-based thing that none of this is you know about. Me or I'm not adding anything necessarily that unique except my perspective on the thing and so just there's a lot of great people if you're interested in act start by pick your pick up a copy of the happiness trap by Dr Russ Harris he's one of like the most accessible and.
42:12.50
ahealthypush
Yeah, yeah.
42:26.88
Tom
Well-spoken and easy to like get into people in the act world read read the happiness shopp I think you'd really like that.
42:31.45
ahealthypush
Okay, so cool. It's now on my list and I'm sure on a lot of people's list too. Thanks Tom we'll talk again soon I'm sure.
42:36.88
Tom
Oh yeah, thank you.
