Anxiety Success Stories: Daniel's Journey to Recovery and Breaking the Stigma Around Men's Mental Health Struggles

Anxiety Success Stories: Daniel's Journey to Recovery and Breaking the Stigma Around Men's Mental Health Struggles

In this episode, I'm joined by Daniel, a former Panic to Peace student, and I'm so grateful to have him on the podcast to share his journey with you all.

This episode brings you a raw, honest account of what it can be like to struggle with anxiety, panic disorder, and agoraphobia from a male perspective, which I know will be so valuable to lots of you in this community.

Early Struggles and Coping Mechanisms

Born and raised in Colorado, Daniel is a married father of three who's life today looks very different than it did in recent years. From early childhood, Daniel recognized the signs and symptoms of anxiety, which worsened with the death of his father when Daniel was just 22. For years, Daniel coped through heavy drinking and avoidance, eventually developing agoraphobia and panic disorder, at times struggling to leave his home.

Turning Point and Recovery Journey

A turning point in Daniel's recovery came after meeting his wife, when he started to push his limits through exposure, traveling further away from home and taking trips outside of his home city. During this time, Daniel stopped drinking, a coping mechanism which he had heavily relied on to deal with the symptoms of panic he was facing.

When the COVID-19 Pandemic hit in 2020, Daniel relapsed into drinking on a long trip away from home. During our conversation we reflected on the impact of coping mechanisms like drinking, and their ability to reduce and minimize how we feel. When struggling it's common to try and numb a lot of anxious thoughts, feelings and emotions we just don't want to face, doing our best to avoid feeling all the things. It can feel like the safe option to avoid these feelings, but recovery and long-term healing comes when we face these feelings and learn how to tolerate the discomfort anxiety brings, teaching ourselves that we are always safe.

Recognizing the negative impacts that his lifestyle was having on his life, Daniel started to focus more on his health and fitness. He soon found that lifestyle changes like diet and exercise were playing a role in improving his mental clarity and ability to manage the symptoms of anxiety and panic. Starting to feel more positive, Daniel began to research and seek out support, and was overwhelmed to discover he was not alone in the way he felt, and that there was a way forward. It soon became clear that long-term healing required changing his relationship with anxiety, rather than the quick fixes or hacks he had relied on in the past.

Breaking the Stigma

Daniel and I spoke about the stigma that surrounds men's mental health. So many men who struggle with anxiety suffer in silence with and perceive it as weakness. But here's the thing: reaching out for help takes courage, and so much strength. I'm so proud of Daniel for getting vulnerable and opening up the conversation.

Nowadays, Daniel experiences occasional panic attacks but is able to rationalize them without them ruining his day. Daniel has made a commitment to long-term healing, has a trip booked out of state with his wife over the summer, and feels optimistic about the future!

Daniel's story is nothing short of inspirational, and I can't wait for you to listen to the full episode, wherever you get your podcasts.

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Feeling like you've tried everything but you're still struggling with lots of anxious thoughts, symptoms, panic attacks, and fears? Take my FREE 60-minute masterclass today and learn 5 shifts that will actually help you to overcome anxiety, panic disorder, and agoraphobia. And I promise, you won't hear any of the usual stuff from me - like doing breathing exercises, grounding practices, cutting out caffeine, and doing more exposures. Let's get you the peace and freedom you deserve without it being so hard!

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TRANSCRIPT

Shannon Jackson  00:01

All right, I am really stoked for today's conversation. I have Daniel with me, and he is a former panic fi student. But I am so stoked to have this conversation because I have not yet had a male on my podcast to talk and share their story and to just get into all the things. So, Daniel, welcome. I am so excited to have you here. Yeah, I'm glad to be here. Excited to be here. Ah, it's gonna be so good. So let's just start like, Who are you tell us a little bit about Daniel.

Daniel  00:33

Okay. I was born and raised. I'm a native to Colorado. I I'm a motorcycle enthusiast. I'm a heavy equipment operator of 15 years. got three kids a wife and just, you know. I don't know. I don't know what else I don't know what else is living

Shannon Jackson  00:57

the dream in Colorado. So let's let's dive in. I'm curious. I know, you've struggled with anxiety and panic for quite some time. Can you like take us back sort of share with us when you really started to see it popping up and really noticing like, this is this is tough, like I'm struggling with something here.

Daniel  01:23

Yeah. Um, so I mean, I can think back. You know, as far back is, oh, man, like maybe, you know, nine or 10 years old, like, you know, I would just be kind of just, you know, living my life and doing my thing and being a kid and stuff like that. And then there was these moments that we would do certain things where I would just start feeling like shit, you know, I just didn't feel right, there was something off there was, you know, felt like something bad was gonna happen. And then and then I would just, I don't know, I would go do something. And then you know, something like a little overstimulating, something that would get me a little excited, like, you know, climbing a mountain pass or something like that, or getting above, you know, like 10, or 10, or 11,000 feet here in Colorado, and then I would just, I would start hyperventilating, I would, you know, feel disassociated from myself. And I, you know, I was explaining it to my mom and my dad, and they're, you know, they're like, you know, my dad would give me like a brown paper bag. And, you know, he just because he saw me that I was like, freaking out. So early on in my, in my, you know, when I was younger, I noticed that I was a little bit more of a, like, panic panicky or kid. But it just, it never really affected me. I mean, I, you know, we went on trips all the time. I mean, we would drive across the United States, no problem, you know, and I wouldn't, you know, feel any type of way about anything, all the way up, you know, through my teenage years. I mean, I was just an unstoppable force, like, just, I mean, I would get into my car, and I would drive so far deep into the mountains of Colorado, like, people would be like, You're nuts. Like, you're insane. Like, I was just, I would just go and just do things. I mean, I would drive, you know, 13 hours by myself to, to different states, and, you know, didn't bother me at all, you know, beginning of my 20s. I mean, you know, I, I had my daughter when I was like, 21 never bothered me, just, you know, living my life. And then at the age of like, 22, my dad passed away. And, you know, my dad and I had an extremely good relationship. Very close, we hunted all the time, me and my brother, and we'd always go hunting and stuff like that, you know, he's the reason why I'm a heavy equipment operator, and, you know, who I am today, you know, the whole thing. I mean, he just, you know, he really sculpted me of who I am as a person today. So when he passed away, that destroyed me, that I mean, just the trauma that just absolutely destroyed me. I mean, it just, you know, I, I, you know, I didn't even I wasn't suicidal, but I didn't want to live, if that makes sense. Like, I just, you know, I didn't I like I was just, I was so devastated. By, you know, him passing away that I just, I didn't know what to do with myself. So I started noticing that my symptoms started getting severely worse after that, because while he was in the hospital, I was finding it hard, you know, hard to breathe hard to think, you know, just like the the mental clarity was just completely gone out of me and like, you know, and just like panic and anxiety was just, you know, it was just so it, that's when it started to really focus in and then when he actually passed away, it was just it was like something that I couldn't get a hold of for a long time. And I think after the initial shock of him passing away, kind of subsided. You know, my symptoms kind of reduced a little bit, but then they it's like they started to just like slowly build back up. And they just and it's like they started to become a little bit more prevalent, like every day was just like, a little bit more, like a little bit more anxiety every single day with just a little bit more a little bit more, until finally, and this is where I think the agoraphobia came into play for me is, I was feeling so shitty one day that I got into my car, and I went for a drive, like I always done, you know, I just would get my car and I would just go, and I remember, I was heading up this, I was way out in the country. And I was heading up this road and I got to this point to where I started losing my mind. Like where I was like, I'm by myself, um, you know, like, I'm way to hell away from home, like, and I just, I was like, I mean, I got to the point where I was actually fucking panicking, like, where I was just, I was like, I'm gonna pull over and I'm gonna ask them these foreign people for freaking help, you know? Yeah. And that was the most that was the scariest panic attack, I you know, that I feel. I mean, I've had many, many, many more since then. But like that one was just Holy crap, man, it just, it really, I mean, it. It was bad. But um, so that that's that put that panic attack pushed me just into agoraphobia, where I was afraid, I was afraid to leave the house, I got to the point to where even going like traveling inside my own city was just, I mean, I would just be sweating profusely, just driving around. And, you know, I mean, it gets cold as hell here and it, and like, my windows of my car would be fogged up and my friends would be like, What the hell's wrong with you, like what's going on with you, and I'm like, Oh, I'm just hot. I just got this jacket on, though, like, I'm fine. And, you know, but internally, I mean, I was just, I was losing my mind. So. So I just, I started to sip to get rid of my symptoms to reduce my symptoms, I just started drinking all the time. So, I mean, it was it was every, every time that I would leave my house, I mean, I would, you know, I would pregame and then I would just, you know, go out, and then I would be drunk the whole time, anywhere I went. So that in turn created its own problems. And I was I turned into a pretty bad alcoholic. I mean, pretty much overnight. And I mean, I was getting kicked out of I mean, I was losing friends, I was getting kicked out of my house. I was, you know, because I was just drunk all the time. And it was just, I was trying to disassociate from that feeling of panic and anxiety. You know, and it's crazy, because it's like, I never even really thought I, I never thought that like, at the time, I was like, I don't I don't know what a panic, you know, like a panic disorder is and agoraphobia and all this stuff like that. I only learned about this stuff maybe a year ago. So I mean, oh, my goodness. I was, yeah, that was over 10 years ago. I

Shannon Jackson  07:55

think that's such a common experience, though, that you don't really know what it is, when you're in it. And your normal human responses, let me do anything to not feel this way. And a lot of people turn to drinking and substances and whatever will give you that that short term relief, and even though it doesn't quite the way the feelings, right, and it doesn't fix things, it definitely makes it feel like it's easier to live with it, when you can just sort of numb it out. I mean, I did the same thing. So I'm glad that you're sharing it. It's like because there's so much shame there, I think. But it makes so much sense. Like you were experiencing something really hard, you didn't even really understand what was going on. It's really scary to experience panic and feel like, there's really no reason why it's happening. But it keeps happening and it's terrifying. And I'm just gonna do whatever I can to, like, make myself feel better. I mean, makes perfect sense. Right. So what, what, what what happened from there?

Daniel  09:03

Um, so, I mean, so from there on. Oh, so yeah, so I, you know, I honestly, I continue to drink a lot. I mean, I continue to just, you know, to kill the pain with that. And then I met my wife. And she, you know, before that, I mean, I just, I don't know, like, I just, I never really had a reason to, you know, to get better or to want to do more something like that. And at this point, I mean, it's just like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't even leave my city. The city limits like I you know, and if I did, I mean, a trip, you know, a trip, you know, an hour or two hours away, I would just be, I would have to be so inebriated, like, you know, to the point of, to where I was like, I wouldn't even really remember trips or anything like that. You You know, but that was better than that, to me was better than, than feeling the, you know, the symptoms, you know, of panic and anxiety. So, so I met my wife, and she, you know, she didn't know that I was suffering from this and, you know, she wanted to go on trips, and, you know, she, you know, she could fly and all this stuff like that. And, and, and I would tell her stories about, you know, all the times that I've, you know, been on the flights. And I've been here because, I mean, she's like, Man, you've been everywhere, like, you've been all over the United States, like, you've done all these things. And like, there's like, there's nothing that you haven't done, you know, and she's like, why aren't we doing any of those things now? And I'm like, Oh, well, you know, I mean, I'm just, I'm broke. And I'm, you know, I don't have money and stuff like that I was making up excuses to like, because I couldn't tell her like, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't bring myself to tell her that I just like, I have a severe panic and anxiety disorder that I don't know what to do about. So. So there was a, there was a time, you know, in the beginning of our relationship where I was starting to branch out a little bit more and little did I know that I was, you know, doing a little bit more exposure therapy, and, you know, and stuff like that, unbeknownst to me, you know, so I started going further and further and further, and we were going 234 hours away, and I wasn't, I wasn't drinking at all, we actually stopped drinking. Well, I stopped drinking shouldn't drink that much. But I stopped drinking. I mean, and I was just like, holy crap, man, I'm starting to feel the way that I used to feel. And so 2020 hit, and you know, the oldest all the fires, and you know, the COVID, and stuff like that happened. And so we went on a super long trip, I think it was like, five hours later, or something like that. And I had the worst time of my life. I mean, I was just struggling so hard to just all these panic symptoms, were coming back up on the trip itself. I mean, I actually suffered from a really, really bad panic attack, that kind of just pushed me right back into drinking. I mean, I immediately pulled over, we went to the first bar, and I just sat there and, you know, got really drunk, and so that I could finish the trip. And we finished it, we did it. But man, when I got back, it was like, you know, it was one of those moments where I was like, okay, like, I, I am not as healed as I think that I am. So, that's going to push me back into this shell of just like, Man, I don't know, I don't even know what to do. So it was kind of a, it was kind of a moment of pause, you know, because I just, I had, I thought that I was good. And then I just, like, got pushed back into, you know, the way that I felt. And I was like, I thought I was I thought I was over it. So anyways, um, you know, kind of stuff. I

Shannon Jackson  12:48

want to highlight something that you just said, because I think it's so important. You said, you know, I am not as healed as I think I am. And that is such a common experience, right that people have, it's one that I had, that you have gotten so long with sort of using any of these coping mechanisms, like drinking and you've gotten really good at avoiding feeling and then you, you know, remove those coping mechanisms. And all of a sudden, you have to feel now and it's like, oh, God, I remember this, this feels terrible. And it's not just trying to numb the feelings of anxiety. It's also trying to numb a lot of feelings and experiences and things that you haven't wanted to face, right? Like, there's some grief there, right? There's some really challenging stuff and the coping strategies, they sort of work right the drinking it, it numbs the anxiety, it numbs the pain and allows you to sort of run from all this stuff, but you take those things away. And not only do you have to feel the anxiety, you have to feel everything that you've been running from like, yeah, it's so hard. So of course, you were like, Heck to the no, like, I'll just go back to the drinking and this is going to be helpful, like

Daniel  14:10

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's, it makes sense that I, you know, that I mean, back to that, just, you know, but, um, so, let's see, so, yeah, so, um, cut you maybe like, a year and a half, two years later, I really started to, like, focus more on like health and fitness and stuff like that, and, you know, wanting to lose weight and, and exercising and stuff like that. I started to take it more seriously. And I just started noticing, you know, that like, my mindset, I mean, my stress was starting to reduce. I mean, we started watching what we were eating, and we started getting on a, you know, we were working out like three, four times a week, you know, and I just started noticing man and just feeling so much better. And so you know, so much There's so much clarity and like I, you know, I'm able to think better and I'm better to, you know, I'm, it's easier for me to sleep, it's, you know, all these things. So I started diving a little bit more into, you know, just to health and fitness and stuff like that and you know, with, with help with help of supplements too, I mean, I started taking supplements to reduce my stress and, you know, and stuff like that. And then it was just like, it was just like a dawn of a new day. I mean, I was just like, holy crap, like, you know, the, what I've been missing this whole time, was I needed to start focusing on my, you know, my health and, you know, my fitness and like, you know, dieting and nutrition, and, you know, and stuff like that, and I just, I started feeling so much better, you know, and then I went with that for, you know, for maybe a year or so. And then I wanted a little bit more, you know, because I, there was just a piece of me that was missing, because I, you know, I was like, Man, I want to get on a flight again, you know, I want to be able to travel, you know, 13 hours again, and not have a, you know, debilitating panic attack without you know, and just all this stuff. So I started researching, you know, more and more things and. And I found this, I found this, this kind of procedure, and it was called a stellar stellar ganglion block shot in your neck. And it injects like, some kind of medicine into your neck. And I was going with that. I was like, oh, man, that like, that's it. But you know, I want to I want to do that, you know, and let's, let's just do that. And, and then I was like, but it's

Shannon Jackson  16:38

like, this will be the fix, right? Yeah,

Daniel  16:40

exactly. But the more and more I researched it, I was like, this is only a temporary fix. You know, this is something for temporary relief, I want I want to get this gone for good. And I researched, you know, and I mean, when I found out that there was something that I could actually do about my anxiety, like there was, you know, like, I found you. I mean, the, the emotions that came over me were overwhelming. I mean, it was like, because I had no idea that I could actually hearing somebody else tell me that they were a sufferer themselves, and that they that they, you know that they got rid of their, you know, their panic and anxiety and stuff like that was just, I mean, it was just such an optimistic feeling that it was overwhelming. Like, I just, I didn't know what to how to feel about it. So, you know,

Shannon Jackson  17:28

yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that, you started to see chips, right? When you were supporting yourself, when you were exercising, when you were eating better, you know, we so minimize these things. But it's such a basic concept, right? That actually works that if you support yourself, it's going to better support your nervous system. And it's going to actually relieve stress and bring down this dysregulation. And that stuff, right? Although we really minimize it, it has such massive effects on us being able to actually do the harder work, like if you want to face your fears, right and do longer drives or you want to get back to all these things that you used to do. Like, you've got to actually support yourself and your nervous system to be able to do that work. Because if you just try to go in full force, like, I'm just gonna do exposures, and I'm gonna face the fears and and you don't have that capacity there within yourself, and you're not supporting yourself, it's not going to work. So that's really cool that you saw that. But yeah, I'm glad that you're talking about. I just, you know, thought maybe this would be the fix, like, because we're all looking for that one fix, right? It just yeah, I'm thinking that's gonna cure everything. But you know, it doesn't.

Daniel  18:46

Yeah, yeah. And it's, that that was one of the things that I researched. Because I'm, you know, I'll research the hell out of something. And, and, and that's the one thing that I found is that I was like, Okay, well, that's pretty cool. But I was like, how long does that last for? And there was a super gray area of just like, well, you know, I mean, it's, it could be, you know, it could help you for life, or it could just last for a week. And it's like, whoa, like, that is? That's crazy. Like, that's not what I'm trying to look for man. I'm trying to I mean, but I was super naive about everything, you know, at that point, you know, and in my mind, in my naive mind, like, I thought that I really thought that that was, you know, that that was the fix. Because I mean, that, you know, they they kind of sell it to you in that way. Not talking anything bad about it, it helps a lot of veterans, you know, and it helps a lot of people. So I'm not saying anything bad about it. It's just not for me. I want I want like a, you know, an alternate way to fix my problem that's going to be permanent in the long run. So, so that's why this was, you know, this was an obvious choice for me. So,

Shannon Jackson  19:54

yeah, and having that just getting to the place where you can make that shift and like x really recognize, I've been seeking out the short term, I've been seeking out these quick fixes and these hacks and you know, these, these things that I know aren't going to actually heal it completely. And I'm not going to do that anymore. And like, I'm actually going to focus on what's gonna lead me to the long term healing like that, what's gonna get to the root of it, and what's actually going to heal it and being able to, of course, see that I think that's what's so powerful, I still even have a hard time when people are like, You changed my life, Shannon, and I'm like, I didn't really change your life, but you did it. But I can see how just being able to see somebody else that's been through it. And to be recognized, like, this doesn't have to be it. And you don't have to keep looking for all these quick fixes, and these hacks and trying all these things, like you just really need to put the time and the focus into you and in creating that healthy relationship with you and responding to anxiety in the healthiest way. And like, that's it, that's where the magic lies. It's not anywhere else. But it's hard. Like, you're in it, of course, you just want to feel better, and you'll do anything to feel better. Right?

Daniel  21:11

Yeah, yeah. And the one thing that resonated with me the most is, you know, like I said, I mean, I'll sit there and I'll research something to death. But, and I mean, I read two or three different books, I was listening to your podcast, religiously, I was listening to other podcasts religiously, you know, reading just all this, like, all this information, this information overload. But one of the things that I love that you said was that, you know, all of that stuff is great, you know, all that stuff, like learning about it, learning what it is, I mean, I know what happens chemically inside your body, when you have these panic attacks. But, you know, going out and getting the exposure, and you know, learning to change your, your relationship with the anxiety and the panic, and you know, and stuff like that. Hearing that was just, I mean, it helped me. I feel like I'm like one of those people that it just like if I can reduce my symptoms of panic and anxiety. And I feel like anybody can do it. You know, it's so, so yeah, that was, that was a very empowering feeling.

Shannon Jackson  22:17

Yeah, so I'm curious, like, how are things looking nowadays? Because they know, of course, like you said, just a year ago, like it was, things are pretty rough. So like, what is life looking like?

Daniel  22:31

So life now. I mean, it's, I mean, until I took your course, like I didn't, you know, I didn't think that I would ever be able to step foot on a plane again. And it's like, I mean, I, you know, I feel like, I feel optimistic enough to where I can step foot on a plane again, and I can fly somewhere, I've been wanting to do more, I've been wanting to travel further. I mean, I've been wanting to go out of state, we have, you know, we have a trip booked for this summer for me to go for up for me and my wife to go out of state and, you know, that's, that's a huge deal for me. I mean, I'm starting to just, I'm starting to be able to do more, like I'm, you know, just because like I am changing my, my relationship with panic and anxiety and stuff like that. And I still, I still experience panic attacks, but they're not as scary as they used to be. I mean, they're like, they really aren't, like, I'm, I'm being able to rationalize them so much more, and I can have one and they're not going to ruin my day. Like I can have one I can have, you know, fairly bad one. And like I can, you know, I can tell myself that I'm not in danger. There's nothing, you know, there's nothing going on. Like, this is the chemical response that's going on in my head, that is making the you know, adrenal glands do this, and blah, blah, and all this stuff like that. And it's like, I immediately can come back down, you know, to square one and I can enjoy doing what I'm doing, you know, beforehand. I mean, it would ruin my week, it would ruin my day, I would be begging my wife for us to go home, I, you know, I couldn't wait to get back in the car, and I would be racing back down, you know, to my house or, you know, back to our city or whatever, you know, and it's like, you know, it's just so easy for me to like, slow down and just rationalize everything and just get myself back to you know, centered and, and stuff like that. So, life has looked a lot better. You know, here recently, especially here in just the last few months, I mean, it's just I feel more optimistic about everything.

Shannon Jackson  24:34

It's so cool to hear you say like I've gotten really good at slowing down and having a different and a healthy response to anxiety because that's such a hard thing to do when you're struggling with panic attacks. I mean, when you have the panic attack, right of course your immediate reaction anyone's immediate reaction is Oh, shit, this is a problem. Like, let me do anything to get rid of it. And why recovery is so hard, right? It's because you have to actually slow down and say, Okay, what we've been doing this trying to do anything and everything to get rid of it trying to fix it has created so many problems. And I need to do my best to resist doing all that. And like, let me just slow down and let myself be with it and not try to like think and do my way out of it. So, I mean, that's such a massive shift, right? And I'm so glad to hear you say I mean, I can see it right, you have this different outlook now that like, I am going to do the things. But I think it's also important to say, right, you don't just take my program, and then magically, you're hopping on all the planes, and you're taking all the trip, and all the things like that. That's not how it works. And that's, I don't ever want people to think that because that's the problem, right? You get sold on the program is going to be the thing that works, the hack is going to be the thing that works, that it's not any of that, like you are going to be the thing that actually works and puts it all together. And fortunately, that takes time. This is not like, oh, I have all these revelations, and I started doing these things. And I flipped the switch. And now I'm good. Like, it just doesn't happen that way. So slowly, slow growth is kind.

Daniel  26:22

Yeah, and you'll, and you'll definitely notice a change. I mean, you'll, you know, you'll notice that I mean, I don't know how to it's, uh, it's one of those things that you just kind of notice slowly over time, you know, that it just like, man, like, you look back on the things that you've done, and you compare him to the things that you used to do. And it just, it's like a huge, you know, it's kind of night and day. I mean, it really is, for me it is I mean, you know, it's it's a, there's a lot of things that, you know, like I said that would just I mean, it would just put me out, you know, and then for like the I call it the I call it like the panic hangover, where it's like you have a panic attack, it's bad. And then it's just like, for days afterwards, you're just like, in just this, you know, depressive, you know, depressed state, and you just don't, you know, you're thinking of like, why, like, why why did that happen to me? What what happened? Like, what were the scenarios that lined up? What was the perfect storm that made that happen to me? And it just, it's like, now it's like, I don't even I didn't even think about that. So because, you know, it doesn't really matter.

Shannon Jackson  27:28

Yeah. And you know, it doesn't it's not helpful. And that it's so hard, though, because I know that when you're struggling with it, right? You think if I can figure out why I can make it not happen. Like if I can figure out why the panic attack happened, if I can figure out why the symptom, whatever I can make it so that this doesn't happen again. And usually the reason why right is because your systems just incredibly dysregulated. Or maybe you had something stressful happen. Or maybe you were like actually letting yourself face something and do something scary. And so it made sense that you have the panic attack. But when you go down those holes, right, and you're analyzing and trying to problem solve, and like you said, right, you're really good at researching things and like digging into things. But that's so not helpful when it comes to anxiety recovery, because the more you dig into the wall, and the more you try to figure it out, the more you're just continually creating that anxiety, like you are not thinking figure your way out of it. And it's really best just to say, not sure. But it's okay that it happened and doesn't have to mean anything, right? Like, I can just go on with my day. And I don't have to create a story about this. And I don't have to figure out the why. Or sometimes it's just simply recognizing, oh, yeah, I've been more stressed or my kids been sick. And it makes sense why I'm feeling more anxious today. But I know it's not simple, right? To always not rational brain, especially when you're you're in panic mode. That doesn't happen.

Daniel  29:01

Right? Yeah.

Shannon Jackson  29:04

So I just want to talk about for a little bit because I think this is really important. I have of course, I don't I shouldn't say of course because I think people don't realize this or see this right. People probably see a lot of women that join my program and see a lot of women worked with me and just a lot of Instagram followers that are women, but I also have a lot of men that follow me and absorb the content. Listen to my podcast. I'm curious, like, as a man thinking about working with me, were you like, oh, gosh, like she doesn't really work with men or like, like, did you have any hesitancy to be like, I'm gonna ask for help. Like, was it Oh, yeah.

Daniel  29:54

Yeah, no, it was. It was something that for sure crossed my mind and I'm I mean, even, you know, going into something like this. I mean, it's, uh, yeah. I mean, there's definitely some thought of, you know, that it's, yeah, I don't know, it's just it's kind of a weird feeling because it's just, it's like, she works with so many women. And yeah, and it's like, you know, the, you know, you see the comments, and, you know, all this stuff like that. And it's just, I mean, it's like, all strictly just women. And it's like, you know, even even in the course, I mean, it's just, you know, we all I mean, for the most part, I mean, you know, a lot of men stayed quiet and, and stuff like that. And I do, I don't know, I don't know what the stigma is. I mean, it's, it's something that I haven't really, you know, really yet figured out. But there there is some weirdness because I think that there, there is just like a stigma in, in life in general, where it just it's like, I don't know, it's men are kind of afraid to, you know, to be vulnerable, like that. And to, you know, so but I mean, for me,

Shannon Jackson  31:00

I think sort of where it comes from, right is you've all been taught like to not be vulnerable, I think you've all been taught, especially in the culture that we live in. To not do that, like men are supposed to just not feel right, your sport is supposed to just like take it all on be okay. Like, be the quote, man. And I think you've been shaped in a way that's really harmful, because it's like telling you, right, you can't be vulnerable. It's not safe to be vulnerable. That's not what you're supposed to do. And I think the beautiful thing, right, is that you're helping to break this stigma by coming on the podcast and sharing your story and showing other men, right, it's okay, it's okay, that you're struggling. And it's okay to talk about it. And it's actually incredibly helpful, right to get vulnerable. But I think that's a big reason. I don't know. I'm curious if you think so that, like, that's why it's, that's one of the reasons why I think it's so hard for men to share and why men stay quiet is because we've sort of been taught like, it's not okay. Yeah,

Daniel  32:04

yeah, I also think that, you know, there's, I mean, a lot of men that I that I know, that I'm friends with, I mean, if they had a situation, or you know, something like this happening, like, for instance, a lot of my friends don't even know that I have this problem. They don't know that I've seek therapy, they don't know that I've tried to take medication that I've tried this divide that all this stuff like that. They don't they don't they have no idea. You know, because it takes one guy out of the group, you know, to not have these problems that will, I mean, we're relentless ly make fun of you. I mean, that's just kind of how men's culture is, is just, you know, at least in my world, you know, and, and that's one of the reasons why I don't and I mean, I trust these guys with my life. I love them. You know, they're, I mean, they're my, they're my brothers. I mean, you know, but they're, they don't understand, and they don't get it. And they think that they're just like, Well, why don't you just try calming down? Well, yeah, if I had $1, for every time I heard that, man, you know, if I could just calm down, everything would be amazing. But no, it's not like that. So and they just don't understand. So yeah, there's a huge stigma.

Shannon Jackson  33:14

Yeah, I am so proud of you, Daniel, because this is gonna be so helpful for not just men, but also for women. And I think, you know, like I've, we've talked about, I also did the same thing for years, you know, people didn't know that I struggled. And I think there is just a lot of shame. And it's mostly, you know, there because we don't talk about it, because I think it's better to not share because people will either judge us or make fun of us or, or make comments. But there's so much healing that happens when you actually are vulnerable, and you're able to talk about things and you're able to actually say like, Hey, I'm struggling. And I know when I did, it was like, one of those moments, right, where a couple of my friends were like, gosh, Shannon, I'm on medication, like I've struggled with that. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? Like, so I am just so dang proud of you. And for all the work that you've done, and just really this commitment. I think the difference is right, and I that I see in you is you have this commitment to the long term healing, and you're done with the hacks and all the things and you're not trying to fix it anymore. In those ways you're really looking at, I'm gonna heal this relationship with myself and with anxiety and like, I can do this and that is so dang beautiful. Yeah,

Daniel  34:38

yeah, for sure. Yeah. And, you know, if I can pave the way, you know, for any man that is out there, or woman, I mean, you know, that is reluctant, you know, because because of, I don't know, whatever reason, I mean, it's just if I can, if I can be the face of, you know, even helping just one guy or one girl, whatever. I mean, it's, you know, like, I feel like I've you know, a cop was something so because I was reluctant. I was, you know, I had second thoughts, but I'm so freaking glad that I did this. I mean, you know, it helped. It really did help me. So

Shannon Jackson  35:12

good. I'm so glad. Well, thank you Daniel. I really appreciate you and just so proud of all the work that you're doing and keep, you know, keep on taking that healthy action.

Daniel  35:24

For sure