Anxiety and OCD Recovery WITHOUT Exposure Therapy with Christina
- Shannon Jackson
- Jul 7, 2024
- 3 min read
Anxiety and OCD Recovery Without Exposure Therapy with Christina
On this episode I'm joined by Christina Ennabe, a licensed therapist and coach supporting people with anxiety and OCD. Christina shares a unique perspective, blending her professional expertise with personal lived experience of OCD.
Christina’s journey with anxiety and OCD began long before her professional career. Looking back on her childhood, she remembers being an anxious child, with traits that she now identifies as early signs of OCD. Despite this, Christina didn't receive an OCD diagnosis until adulthood. Christina now works with clients around the world supporting them with their OCD recovery!
OCD recovery is absolutely possible with the right treatment and support, and on this episode, we explore what recovery can look like without traditional exposure therapy.
Anxiety or OCD?
During our conversation we first touched on the difference between Anxiety and OCD. Anxiety and OCD present very similarly, so it can be tricky when trying to navigate between an Anxiety and OCD diagnosis.
While Anxiety is often centered around worries about current issues or the future, OCD is marked by intrusive, unwanted thoughts, images, or urges (obsessions). OCD leads to excessive and repetitive behaviors, also known as compulsions, that we do in response to our thoughts or our "What Ifs". They aren't just physical, but mental too.
While there is a lot of overlap between Anxiety and OCD, recognizing and treating these differences is so important to accessing the right treatment for you.
Therapies for OCD
Thankfully, there are many approaches and therapy types for treating OCD that can help people manage their symptoms and lead happier, more fulfilling lives.
One of the more well known therapies is Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) therapy, which involves a structured approach where individuals are gradually exposed to their feared thoughts, images, or situations while resisting the urge to perform their usual compulsive behaviors. While this type of therapy is hugely helpful to lots of people, Christina has often found that many of her clients have had a difficult experience with exposures.
Christina’s story and experience with her clients, shows that you can recover from OCD without just using ERP therapy. Although ERP is often seen as the gold standard , Christina found a lot of help through Inference-Based Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (ICBT). This therapy helped her build confidence and trust in herself, offering a more well-rounded way to manage her symptoms.
ICBT helps with OCD by tackling the way people misinterpret doubtful situations as real threats. Instead of focusing on specific obsessive thoughts, this type of therapy looks at the reasoning behind those thoughts. It helps individuals learn to tell the difference between what's real and what's just in their imagination. This shift in perspective reduces the power of obsessive thoughts, empowering individuals to build confidence in themselves and significantly improve their ability to manage and overcome OCD symptoms.
Christina stresses the need to recognize and validate different treatment methods, as what works best can vary from person to person. Her experience has shown that with the right support and strategies, managing and recovering from OCD is possible without relying only on ERP.
So, if ERP is something you have struggled with, or if you would like to learn more about what Christina teaches, be sure to listen to the full episode, or you can connect with Christina below!
Feeling like you've tried everything but you're still struggling with lots of anxious thoughts, symptoms, panic attacks, and fears? Take my FREE 60-minute masterclass today and learn 5 shifts that will actually help you to overcome anxiety, panic disorder, and agoraphobia. And I promise, you won't hear any of the usual stuff from me - like doing breathing exercises, grounding practices, cutting out caffeine, and doing more exposures. Let's get you the peace and freedom you deserve without it being so hard!
Check out my masterclasses here and start experiencing lots more peace, joy, & freedom!
TRANSCRIPT
00:00.00
ahealthypush
Okay, I'm so excited to have another guest with me I have Christina here and she is an anxiety and ocd therapist. And she's actually on the East Coast like right next door to me which is super fun to be able to talk and engage with somebody who's close to me which doesn't normally happen so christina welcome to a healthy push podcast.
00:22.24
Christina
Thank you so much Shannon and it's so funny because I have been following you for a while I didn't mention this before we started recording. But I've been following you for a while and I don't think I realized that you were in Maine. For a while like I I figured you were in new england somewhere but I was like oh my gosh we're like neighbors. It's so funny.
00:39.33
ahealthypush
Yeah I know it is so funny just because usually I mean I feel like everyone's on the west coast or like you know sometimes they do get people who are New York Pennsylvania but it's so nice and when I saw that you were from New Hampshire I'm like oh awesome right? next door to me. So yeah i'm.
00:53.40
Christina
And.
00:58.32
ahealthypush
And really excited to dig in. We're going to talk about anxiety and Ocd but before we go there. Can you just tell us a little bit about christina.
01:08.99
Christina
Um, sure so as you mentioned I'm a licensed therapist here in New Hampshire I also hold licenses in Maine and Florida you know we get those snowbirds who like to commute um and.
01:18.47
ahealthypush
Yes.
01:25.75
Christina
Yeah I have my own private practice. It's all Telehealth and I started this during Covid wild enough and um I always knew that I wanted to do Telehealth ah though even before Covid Because. I Really have a passion for travel and I would really love at some point to be a digital nomad traveling or living abroad and doing this work So but you know funnily enough I did just buy my first home so not going anywhere Maybe time soon.
01:45.84
ahealthypush
And.
02:00.10
Christina
But ah, definitely the telehealth thing um is just makes my work more accessible which I really appreciate? Um, but when I'm not working I love to hike I think you and I share that in common Love being outside and I also am a clinician with livedic.
02:11.96
ahealthypush
Yeah.
02:19.72
Christina
Experience with anxiety ocd trauma bfrbs. So the whole gambit and I think that has definitely helped in a lot of ways with my work and. I am also on the board of ocd new Hampshire. So we do a lot of community local trainings and support groups and events. And yeah, I'm really excited to be here and talk about my experience.
02:50.60
ahealthypush
Yeah I Love I Love that you're honest and vulnerable and you share that aspect that you've had that lived experience and I think that's the case with so many therapists in Coaches. So Let's start there. Can you talk a little bit about your experience with. Anxiety No cd.
03:13.72
Christina
Absolutely I'm pretty open and transparent about my experiences. Um because for so long I didn't know that I had Ocd I knew that I was an anxious person I Pretty much had anxiety since I was born.
03:20.97
ahealthypush
Bring time.
03:31.16
Christina
And um, funnily enough like my mom will share a lot of childhood stories about me and it ties back to Ocd so clearly now. But at the time you know we didn't know what we knew and thought it was just anxiety thought I was just a very particular. Type of child um perfectionist and yeah, and then I developed through you know some traumatic experiences I developed depression in my teens and it was a really really hard time Because. Mental Health wasn't talked about like it is now and there was no social media so I was truly like alone in my experiences only child single parent home moving around a lot. Yeah so I really struggled and it.
04:14.49
ahealthypush
Oh wow.
04:24.23
Christina
Took me until college when I took some psychology classes that I was like oh now I can finally understand why I'm the way that yeah and you know a lot of therapists experiences and I'm sure you know coaches as well. They come to this work through their own experiences of trying to understand trying to like. Heal and work through you know our past stuff and that was certainly the case for me and um, yeah I've I learned that I had ocd only a couple of years ago actually and it was after I had already been doing this kind of work because. When you don't know about Ocd it fits into a box right? You think it's just 1 thing like contamination or needing things to be orderly and even as a therapist. You're not really taught the details of a lot of mental health conditions. You're just kind of like trying to learn as much as you can.
05:13.56
ahealthypush
2
05:22.23
Christina
Relatively short amount of time and then you're thrust into the world try to you know to do this kind of work. So I truly didn't really know about Ocd I attended a local training in Portsmouth through Ocd New Hampshire actually and it was really just a.
05:25.48
ahealthypush
Yeah.
05:41.17
Christina
Be in person and meet colleagues and people in this area because it was still during covid so I was really excited to just go to an in-person training and that's where I learned about Ocd and I was like oh my gosh this resonates. This is really interesting I want to learn as much as I can about it so I started. Getting specialized in it started seeing clients with it and then I was like wait a second a lot of what these people are talking about are things that I experience or have experienced but I just thought it was anxiety or just perfectionism.
06:12.81
ahealthypush
Yeah.
06:17.57
Christina
And so it was like light bulb moments suddenly things started to make sense and click and I yeah I got a diagnosis and the rest is history first.
06:29.20
ahealthypush
Yeah I It's so interesting because I think a lot of people um, have this similar journey where you know, not not to say it lightly right? because they think we say it's not just anxiety because it's like anxiety is.
06:41.13
Christina
I write just in air quotes. Yeah.
06:43.55
ahealthypush
Heart right? right? like anxiety is tough enough. But I think a lot of people share this similar journey of I Just always thought it was anxiety and I never really knew and of course being able to understand really what is going on helps you to actually get the support and help that you need. So ah, how did what were some of the specifics like what did it look like what or commonly with clients. What are some things that you often see that's like oh no, this isn't just anxiety.
07:17.78
Christina
Yeah I think so anxiety and Ocd present very similarly and certainly when I say just anxiety again. It's the Justin Air quotes because yeah, anxiety in and of itself can be hell. Um and when you. Can pinpoint ocd it really does make a difference because the treatment is different and it's so important to get the right treatment because in my personal experience when I was working on anxiety. It felt like I was a hamster on a wheel going nowhere beating my head against the wall. Um, not really.
07:46.36
ahealthypush
Method.
07:54.62
Christina
There There was no like solution. So That's why I say like it's it's important um to specify the difference and so when I had those like aha moments it was when I realized that compulsions. The excessive and repetitive behaviors that we do in response to our thoughts or our our what Ifs weren't just physical but mental and that was like a huge awakening. Because again when you think of Ocd Sometimes you just think of it as this one thing where you wash your hands a lot or you chuck you know, ah appliances or the doors several times. Um, but for me a lot of my compulsions were mental so ruminating.
08:43.62
Christina
Replaying things over and over in my head to try to figure things out um going over conversations in my head trying to basically solve answers to unsolvable questions and a lot of my physical compulsions.
08:54.53
ahealthypush
F.
09:02.46
Christina
Were because I was really afraid of certain consequences and outcomes and I was trying to control those things or prevent those things from happening and the things that I was worrying about though weren't real issues in my reality they were things that I was like making up. In my head because I was focusing on what what might happen or what might be true and I wasn't actually it wasn't like an actual problem that I was dealing with does that make sense. Okay, so.
09:31.62
ahealthypush
Um, oh absolutely I mean it just I feel like there's so much overlap to you with Ocd and panic disorder because you're so often right in your head and making up all these scenarios and they're not even happening.
09:40.70
Christina
I Yeah exactly exactly and I never experienced panic attacks or anxiety attacks anything like that.
09:46.91
ahealthypush
But you're like always trying to prevent them and yeah, yeah, it makes sense.
09:58.37
Christina
But I was just like inner turmoil All of the time I Always I'm going to be such a nerd right now but are you are you a twilight fan at all. Okay.
10:00.49
ahealthypush
A.
10:08.21
ahealthypush
Oh my God I read I read them I watched the movies. Yeah.
10:15.51
Christina
Maybe not a fan. But maybe you watched the movies and read the books. Okay, so you know when Bella is transforming into a vampire and she's paralyzed because she's got like so much like venom or whatever in her system so like outwardly she's calm and chill and like a sleep or whatever but inside like.
10:15.58
ahealthypush
Yeah.
10:24.40
ahealthypush
Um, yeah.
10:32.91
Christina
Her body is like raging and it's like going through this huge like transformation. Well that was my experience with anxiety and Ocd on the outside put together looks like she's got her shit like you know, like totally like with it but inside it was a.
10:42.61
ahealthypush
Yeah, yeah.
10:52.79
Christina
Whole completely different story and that's yeah and so when I realized like what was ocd and what was anxiety it really helped me to have a more balanced and holistic approach to managing my mental health. Um, and depression was more of like trauma based and more um, more just like the exhaustion that comes from having anxiety and od as well. So I have had to do other work outside of just you know? Ah I Cd.
11:20.76
ahealthypush
With me.
11:30.51
Christina
And anxiety work as well. So I would like to disclaimer that right? because often it's not just 1 thing people are dealing with it's a lot of overlapping things.
11:39.60
ahealthypush
Yeah I love that you shared a really challenging aspect and sort of a telltale sign for you is the the mental compulsions and the the ruminating because I think that's something that is so hard for so many people. It's such a challenging aspect. Um. Can you talk a little bit because I'm sure people are wondering like and trying to essentially figure out. Is it just anxiety or do I have Ocd and not just say you can. We're not diagnosing on a podcast. Absolutely but what are some. Compulsions that aren't like the typical standard ones that you hear that might be very indicative of ocd.
12:24.72
Christina
Um, yeah, so um, Jenna Overbaugh she's an ocd therapist actually talks a lot about how Ocd and general anxiety function the same in a lot of wayss and so in this most simplest.
12:33.70
ahealthypush
A.
12:42.72
Christina
Terms I can again, it's not like diagnosing and not using like diagnostic manuals here. But like the way that I describe general anxiety versus ocd is with general anxiety you're worrying too much about an actual problem. So like. There is actual There's actually something going on in your reality in like the present moment that is validating and justifying whatever you're worrying about so. Let's say like you just got fired from your job for example and now you're worrying about how am I going to pay my bills like am I going to find a new job like. What am I supposed to do now. Okay, those are very valid justifiable concerns right? But maybe you're doing behaviors that aren't super helpful or maybe you're thinking too much about something and not trying to find a solution to the problem but that's like an example of general anxiety. For Ocd you're worrying too much about an imaginary problem so there is nothing in your immediate reality that suggests that this is something that is valid to worry to worry about. But you're doing behaviors to try to. Like again solve something that can't be solved so let's say like you're worrying about finances. You're worrying about paying your bills but you have a steady job There's no information that says you're going to get fired. You know you actually probably receive very positive feedback from your boss and your colleagues but you still think about what what if I get fired.
13:58.87
ahealthypush
I mean.
14:10.87
Christina
What if I can't pay my bills What if what? if what? if what if right? and then you ruminate based off of that so you can see how so easily they overlap with each other but that's the way that I like to help people to understand the difference but I always say that they're like ah.
14:11.29
ahealthypush
That one.
14:30.19
Christina
They're like cousins that are just like negative influences on each other just like really like feeding off of each other and most people probably if you have ocad you probably also have general anxiety. Um. Not to say that everybody does or not to say that everybody with anxiety also has Ocd but there are a lot of overlaps.
14:51.82
ahealthypush
Yeah I think social media can be such a wonderful helpful world but it can also be really tricky and that I can see you know from somebody who's experienced it and been through it that there's so many things out there telling you like you could have this. You could have that and you know so many people come to work with me and say well I think I also have ocd and like it. It can be so challenging because like you said they are like cousins and they're very similar and I know you know Jenna very personally and she's been on the podcast and she shares you know, not much of it.
15:16.86
Christina
Here.
15:28.10
Christina
The.
15:31.14
ahealthypush
Ah, difference in in treating these things either. So I'm curious when you started to learn like okay this is actually Ocd and and like I want to you know, figure out how I can essentially get better. What did that.
15:41.20
Christina
And then.
15:50.46
ahealthypush
Look like like where the heck did you even start.
15:53.29
Christina
Well I think I have the benefit of already being an Ocd therapist. Well I'll say this is a blessing and a curse though because because I already was the ocd.
16:03.23
ahealthypush
Yeah I was going to say. Ah.
16:12.37
Christina
Therapist network it was actually really challenging to find an Ocd therapist because I already knew everybody I didn't want to work I couldn't work with someone I knew personally right? um and then unfortunately people.
16:19.40
ahealthypush
Confirm.
16:27.43
Christina
Online will say that they work with Ocd but don't actually do any ocd evidence-based treatments so that was challenging. Um, so really like in the beginning I I tried some.
16:44.18
Christina
I tried some work with some online therapists and didn't really stick and ultimately I just kind of took things into my own hands and did the work myself which again is where the blessing comes in of like I know what to do I Know how to do it and 1 of the pros of social media is that you do. Um, find like-minded people and I found a lot of other clinicians and Clinicians with lived experience so made some friends that way and through again through social media really gains like a support system. So um. Yeah, a lot of my work with recovery has been my own.. It's been self-help um which I wouldn't yeah could work for a lot of people but in knowing where to start it is tough.
17:30.34
ahealthypush
Well.
17:32.99
Christina
I started with exposure and response prevention which most people will hear about and know about with Ocd and that worked a lot for my social anxiety and it worked a lot for. My business anxiety and just like doing things that maybe I was avoiding. It definitely helped with just my overall anxiety general anxiety but I also I'm sure this might be a good segue to talk about icbt inference space. Cognitiveed behavior therapy so that was something I stumbled on not too long after doing yeah erp so I wasn't like totally like absorbed in the yeah erp mindset. Um, when I came to icbt and that was a. Big game changer I would say in managing Ocd specifically for me and with yeah with building like my confidence and trust in myself too.
18:40.56
ahealthypush
Yeah, yeah, which is a huge part right of of how you heal. So I'm curious. Let's let's go there. What's I cbt because I think so many of us here erp and we know it's sort of this gold standard treatment and. It's pushed a lot when it comes to Ocd and can honestly make a lot of people feel like it's the only way it's the only thing that's going to help so I'm very interested to hear what's icbt.
19:05.28
Christina
Bigger.
19:11.89
Christina
Yeah, and I love talking about it because it is gaming popularity and more people are learning about it. But that definitely doesn't have the platform that yeah, erp does and so I'm always happy to talk about it and share about it because we need as many options and resources as we can get. And you're right that if people feel we're here unfortunately from people that yeah ep is the only way and it doesn't work for them or they don't want to do it then it's like what you just like Sll like no like you you have options so icbt is inference.
19:42.50
ahealthypush
Yeah.
19:50.52
Christina
Face cognitive behavioral therapy. It's a long jargony word long dragonny term I cbt basically theorizes that people with ocd struggle with confusing what might be true for what is actually true so we get absorbed in. Our imagination and these what if narratives and these what if scenarios and we treat them as if they were actually happening in the here and the now and so we're not trusting ourselves. We're not trusting what our senses are telling us where we're. Justifying our compulsions through this flawed reasoning and we're just getting confused. We're getting confused and we struggle to know like what is real versus what is Ocd and icbt sees ocd happen on this in this pattern. Where what we're trying to do is tackle obsessions because if you don't have obsessions and you automatically don't have compulsions because we're doing compulsions in response to obsessions right? So in doing that we are basically so.
20:52.90
ahealthypush
Because right right.
21:00.28
Christina
Like stopping ocd from the front end of things and that in that way, there's no need for exposure and there's no need for really response prevention because the whole response prevention part is by getting rid of the obsessions. So it does that through a lot of. Cognitive thinking tools and techniques. It's a cognitive intervention. So it's much different than yeah Erp and you really have to approach it in that way of knowing that it is completely different. And yeah, Erp these are 2 like standalone treatments. They're 2 very different treatments. So if you really are absorbed and like like I said the mindset of Erp you might come to icbt and be like but wait a second like this sounds a lot like reassurance this sounds a lot like arguing with Ocd this sounds a lot like engaging with it.
21:47.78
ahealthypush
The.
21:55.20
Christina
And so you really like have to approach it from a completely like open mindset. But once you do in my opinion and I would say in a lot of feedback I get from clients is that icbt is very approachable. It's way less intimidating and it's much gentler than yeah, Erp you know I I love yeah, Erp I think it has its um, its use and like so many people have benefited from it I've benefited from it. But yeah, it can be really. Intimidating and it can be really scary and you know not all yeah erp therapists are treated equal and not everybody does it correctly. Unfortunately, and um, you know you can go too hard too quickly with it sometimes. And it's really is like you know a trial and error kind of thing where sometimes it's like okay we're going to try an exposure we think is going to be easy and then it's like traumatizing as like you know, unfortunately, that's not what you want and and that's not how it quote unquote should be but for many people.
23:00.78
ahealthypush
Yeah.
23:12.55
Christina
I post like I asked a poll on my Instagram about it and unfortunately a lot of people said that they've had a negative experience with exposures and and then if you don't realize that there's other options then you just feel hopeless and defeated and that's why I talk so much about I cv yeah, um. Um, my Instagram because I want people to know that there are other options and you know I cbt isn't going to necessarily be. You know the quote unquote thing that is for everyone not saying it is but it's just like okay, it's another option. Awesome like that's.
23:49.88
ahealthypush
Yeah, and I don't ever think either I've I've never been sold on like this is the thing that really helped me like there are so many you know, modalities and resources and tools that can be helpful but you're never going to look back at your journey and be like.
23:51.28
Christina
That's really it. So.
23:58.95
Christina
Other.
24:09.41
ahealthypush
Thank god you know it was that and that was the thing that did it because there's always like way more pieces than just 1 thing being it. But I love this idea of targeting the obsessions because I think you know I have a family member that struggles. Ah, a lot with Ocd and and I can see you. It's like it's like me when I struggled with panic and ago agoraphobia I can see it very clearly and I'm just like oh my goodness you know you're these obsessions and they're they're not real. They're not but as much as you want to talk logic into it. You can't you can't make it. You know the person understand like this stuff is not even really, you don't even have to worry about this, you don't even it's it's just not that simple. Um, but targeting the obsession seems really helpful. Of course, right? because it's like if you can get off of that hamster wheel. Then you don't even have all the other stuff that's.
24:53.81
Christina
Um, yeah.
25:07.00
ahealthypush
Subsequently coming after can you give an example of like what that can look like targeting the obsessions.
25:08.26
Christina
Right.
25:15.16
Christina
Yeah, so I see that he looks at obsessions maybe differently than ways that we're traditionally taught so you know in the diagnostic manual for assessing ocd. Obsessions are defined as intrusive unwanted thoughts images urges that cause distress and I cbt looks at it as obsessions are actually doubts about what is possible so they often sound like what Ifs like what if this what if that. So.
25:45.25
ahealthypush
Oh.
25:48.99
Christina
An intrusive thought is not actually the problem because many of us without Ocd even like have intrusive thoughts and I I heard someone else say this that you know we could all Maybe we could even argue that maybe all of our thoughts are intrusive to an extent right? like we don't really have control over what pops into our head.
26:00.67
ahealthypush
Right? remove.
26:07.72
Christina
It's what we do with it after and so an interest of thought could be a trigger that sets off this obsession. What if so let's say like you have an intrusive image of someone breaking into your house. Maybe it was like something that you saw in the news or something in a scary movie. And then your mind goes what if that could happen to me what if my door's unlocked right now and someone could break in and then because of that what if we fear a consequence. Well if that's true. Well someone's going to Rob me or if that's true like someone could get hurt and it could be all my fault because I didn't. Double check that the door was locked right? So that causes a lot of panic. A lot of anxiety and then you do the compulsion in response to all of that so you go back and check or you take a picture of the door lock and see yep, it's locked and you check the picture several times for reassurance right.
26:45.22
ahealthypush
Leave.
26:59.66
ahealthypush
Yeah.
27:04.67
Christina
So That obsession what if is what is causing the rest of that sequence to follow right? The feared consequence the panic or the fear. Whatever and then the compulsion. So if we can learn to recognize that obsession for what it is. It's. What if about what's possible and we can understand where that's coming from that. It's not random. It's happening for a reason and again you're justifying those things for a reason what is that? what? what is what is at the root of all of that.
27:35.73
ahealthypush
10
27:38.61
Christina
Once you get at all of that and you understand how these obsessions are being formed then you can nip them in the Bud before you even get anywhere close to the panic and the compulsion and that's the idea so it really for me has been like super. Empowering to just see Ocd for what it is have it be glaringly obvious when it shows up in my life and not fear it or not feel like I have to be a victim to it but just like no I know exactly what's happening I know why it's Happening. Don't have to go down that rabbit hole I'm good and move on with my life and it's a lot different than just accepting uncertainty you know, leaning into. Maybe it will happen. Maybe it won't happen and like practicing distress tolerance.
28:18.18
ahealthypush
Yeah.
28:35.53
Christina
You know, like distressing ourselves on purpose that again can have its time and place. But um, you see how like we're not even we're not getting into any of that with I cbt.
28:37.51
ahealthypush
Yeah, yeah, um.
28:45.41
ahealthypush
Yeah I I do like how it's a more gentler approach like you said because I think a big problem that I see in a lot of students and clients that come to me as they've been struggling for years and years and they've been sort of sold on this idea that i'm. Somehow just like weak or incapable and I can't force myself to do these things because when I do I just you know shit it's the fan and I'm like even more anxious I'm panicking and I think. It's so hard. It makes me so sad because I think so many people are sold on this idea that that they are the problem and that this thing that they need to do is something that they just can't do and therefore they're not going to ever recover. Yeah.
29:33.42
Christina
Yeah, or don't want to do right? It kind of like takes away the the agency and also like there's this undertone of shame if you're not doing it or if you're not doing it right quote unquote and I don't know just whatever that means? Yeah, um, so.
29:44.30
ahealthypush
Um, yeah, right? Whatever that means? ah.
29:52.95
Christina
So Yeah I Just um, it really changed and transformed my way of looking at obcd and my personal journey with with it and that was all for myself self self-help as well where I just did it on my own because I knew how. Again, That's my advantage of being a therapist and um, yeah I've had I've known other people Non-claationians who have done icbt by themselves and it's yeah, it's much like I said it can be more of an approachable way of. Doing it then just trying to like expose yourself to stressful things all of the time and and yeah feel like I'm just repeating myself. But.
30:39.52
ahealthypush
No yeah, but I I think it's such a sort of a breath of fresh air because this is like something that I think is really not helpful in this you know space I think it's it does bring a lot of shame into the Mix. And makes people feel like I need to do the exposure I can't do the exposure I'm never going to get better and it's It's so hard to watch people struggle and like I tell people all the time I've worked with so many people that haven't done exposure work and they've still recovered.
31:16.00
Christina
Yeah, yeah.
31:16.77
ahealthypush
So it's not this tool that you must do and you know if you don't You're not going to recover and I'm very honest I never did exposure work I no therapist ever even talked to me about it which I'm a little bit now like why.
31:34.23
Christina
I was going to say why.
31:34.81
ahealthypush
But maybe they knew right? I mean I had several therapists when I was struggling over the course of 15 years and yeah, not 1 ever had a conversation with me about exposure therapy which is interesting but I also say I think maybe it's because they knew. That it wouldn't be really helpful or effective for me given just the way that I am um and I really don't think it would have been helpful. But yeah, that's a whole nother thing I think something that you hit on right was pushing people to face their fears. Without really helping them to understand why the fears are there and why they keep coming back and that's the thing that's so frustrating I think in this work is people are just being told just get out there face it do it but nobody's actually helping them to see.
32:18.14
Christina
Um, right? um.
32:28.70
ahealthypush
This is why it's here. This is why it keeps popping up because once you understand that like I literally think that changes so much for so many people.
32:35.89
Christina
Well we talk a lot of in Ocd about how it plays wha-a-mole where the different themes and subtypes change where maybe you recover from one and then there's a backdoor spike and then oh now you have a different theme and you're just playing whack-a-mole and that.
32:39.53
ahealthypush
A.
32:55.65
Christina
In my opinion is not what recovery looks like and that is not what it should look like where when you really get to the root of it then whenever.
33:00.26
ahealthypush
We have.
33:10.43
Christina
Ah, different theme may or may not pop up. It's because of what is already existing it's because of what is already already there that hasn't been resolved yet and so once you resolve that then you're not playing whackmole anymore and even if a different trigger pops up, you. Know how to handle it where you're not just managing it or you're not just dealing with it or like dealing with it in the sense of like well this is my life and this is just I got to just deal with it like no, you can actually recover and it's not going to impact your your functioning and you can live the life that you want to live and that's. That's my ultimate hope for people that they can get to that point and not just feel like yes because of Cd is chronic that that means they have to suffer forever.
33:53.87
ahealthypush
Right? Oh absolutely. So this conversation has been so helpful. It's just like I think for people listening I really hope you know in no way or really shitting on any of the the different modalities. It's just. I think it's so incredibly necessary to make sure that people are aware that there's not just one way and that there are so many things that can be helpful and it's not going to be just 1 thing and you know maybe exposure therapy doesn't need to be part of it for you and that's okay, like so. I'm just curious. You know Christine if somebody's listening and they're like I have been struggling for so long like I know that I'm struggling with Ocd this has been absolute hell and like I am just so at my breaking point like what what would you say to that person.
34:52.32
Christina
Um, so I've been on a kick recently where especially in my social media I've been talking a lot about the fact that O Cd is very treatable and that recovery is possible because we I think.
34:59.97
ahealthypush
Yeah.
35:08.30
Christina
We can easily get into this headspace of like Ocd is a death sentence having those cds like the worst thing ever and that it's just like pain and suffering all of the time and yeah, unfortunately that is people's experience because.
35:12.45
ahealthypush
Um.
35:25.54
Christina
They're not in treatment or they're not getting the the help that works for them. But when you do get treatment or even if you do the work yourself. It is so treatable and you can get to a point I've I've seen it like I've seen people go from. Extreme severe all the way like at the worst of the worst where they like I recently had a had a client who almost went inpatient and dropped out of school to do inpatient. Yeah Erp but they didn't want to do that and so we did icdt and.
35:53.67
ahealthypush
Please.
35:59.11
Christina
They graduated. They never had to drop out of school. They never had to go impatient Obviously don't know what the future is going to hold for them in that regard. But like they were able to graduate and if we if we did an assessment now they probably would be at like a moderate to mild and some people can get subclinical. So it's like.
36:06.75
ahealthypush
Wow.
36:18.56
Christina
That is what recovery is all about and and and so easily like we can get into this like negative head space with usd and and I don't know I just like I want people to know that there is hope and you can. Like you do have way more power over it than you might think that you do and you have options and it's just about trying things right? I like I always say be a student, be open to learning be open to making mistakes be open to just. Like hearing other perspectives and see what sticks for you and what works for you as an individual and run with it right? If it's not yeah, Erp great if it's not I cbt great like whatever it works for you but but find it and don't give up because.
36:59.21
ahealthypush
Yeah.
37:11.40
Christina
Yeah I've I've seen it I've seen how people can go from like debilitating Ocd to subclinical.
37:15.21
ahealthypush
Wow I love that all right? So if people want to find you connect with you learn from you Christina where can they find you.
37:24.84
Christina
My instagram Christina Counsels is where I share a lot about icbt share a lot of icbt content and I have some icbt freebies if people want to learn about it. They can. They can access that and um, yeah, I'm pretty much this like the platform that I use for everything is Instagram so that's probably the best way for people to connect if you're located in New Hampshire Maineland Florida and want to do icec me too with me I'm always. Always open to working with people in that way too.
38:00.81
ahealthypush
I Love that Well we'll share all the links and I just appreciate you so much I think this has been such a helpful conversation. So a flame will chat soon. Maybe we'll meet in person I Love it. Yes, please.
38:12.19
Christina
I Would love that let's go on a hike.
