Anxiety Success Stories: A Therapist's Journey Navigating Anxiety and Panic Disorder, with P2P Student, Claire
- Shannon Jackson
- Jan 5
- 39 min read
In this episode of a Healthy Push Podcast, I was grateful to sit down with another one of my Panic to Peace students, Claire!
I’m always excited to sit down with one of my students, and Claire offers a unique, in-depth point of view on all things anxiety. She is not only a former student of mine, but also a licensed therapist! We discuss how even as a therapist and someone who knows anxiety intimately, Claire has struggled with anxiety and panic in the same ways so many of us have.
Be sure to listen to our full conversation, I think you’ll find it especially insightful!
Claire’s History With Anxiety
To start these conversations, it’s always helpful to understand where the relationship with anxiety started. For some, anxiety can seemingly come out of nowhere, with no warning signs, prior experiences, or symptoms. For Claire, this was the case. As she explains, anxiety is not something she dealt with as a young child, and she wouldn’t describe herself as a naturally anxious person. Instead, she vividly remembers a specific, ‘explicit event’, a panic attack at the age of 12, that ‘set her off’ on her journey with anxiety, specifically panic disorder.
As Claire grew into young adulthood and enrolled in grad school, pursuing a master's degree in counseling psychology, her panic episodes remained somewhat manageable. Certain situations and environments triggered her panic attacks, but she didn’t feel as though anxiety was consuming her on a day-to-day basis. Claire explains that it wasn’t until college and grad school that she truly started researching and understanding anxiety and panic, and was eventually able to self-diagnose herself with panic disorder.
Now, What?
I was curious to hear about what Claire’s next steps were, and how she approached her issues with panic disorder. We’ve all had the helpless feelings of what to do about anxiety and panic once the issues are defined, and how to effectively navigate our relationship with it moving forward. As a young woman pursuing a master's degree in a field very much intertwined with understanding and addressing anxiety and panic, something she was dealing with herself, Claire offered an interesting point of view, and insight into her journey. Let’s jump into a few applications Claire tried, how they worked (or didn’t), and what she learned in the process!
Exposure Therapy
I’m sure you’ve heard of or even tried exposure therapy, and Claire was no different. As her panic symptoms started to become more frequent and intense, exposure therapy was one of the first places she turned. She felt, looking at panic analytically, that this was a rational place to begin her journey in improving her relationship with it. After all, her resources and colleagues tended to support an application such as exposure therapy. According to the data, it must work, right?
What is Exposure Therapy?
Exposure Therapy is a type of cognitive behavioral therapy, commonly used to treat conditions such as panic disorder, OCD, and PTSD. Essentially, a patient, in a safe setting and usually accompanied by a trained therapist, will be gradually exposed to the thing(s) they fear. In theory, this approach is meant to show the patient that these things are not in fact fearful, that their fear is irrational, and teaches them how to manage the fear. For anxiety and panic, therapists may try to “mimic” the symptoms of an attack. For example, therapists may deploy applications such as having you breath through a straw, or spin you around in a chair to the point of dizziness.
I’m sure you’re wondering, after all the supporting data and research, did exposure therapy work for Claire? Unfortunately… it did not (and this is actually pretty common!). Lots of Panic to Peace students have had this same experience. Claire was left with the familiar feeling many of us have experienced: why isn’t this working for me? Frustrated, she moved on to different approaches, including debating medication, trying hypnosis, and even acupuncture. While she admits that things like hypnosis and acupuncture did seem to help calm her nervous system momentarily, she was always left with the same thought, ‘it wasn’t improving my relationship with panic.’
Panic to Peace: Taking Control
Speaking from her medical and analytical background, Claire was desperate to find a “cure” for anxiety and panic. But, as time went on, she came to the realization that you’ll hear me echo and proclaim incessantly: there is no cure. There is no magic pill or quick fix to dealing with anxiety and panic. In order to effectively and healthily address anxiety and panic, it’s important to shift our mindset away from “cure this immediately”. Instead, looking at anxiety and panic as a personal and complex relationship that we can better understand and improve upon. As Claire took the next step toward long-term healing, I was curious to know what she found helpful within my Panic to Peace program, and how she applies it in her day-to-day life.
Today, Claire is in a much better place with anxiety and panic. After enrolling in Panic to Peace, one of the first things she mentions is something I hear often from my current and former students, and is music to my ears: the sense of community. We can sometimes overlook or underestimate the power of relating to others, especially in times of need. Claire shares that the community within Panic to Peace was incredibly helpful for her in showing her that she wasn’t alone, and it also gave her that extra layer of support throughout her healing journey.
Secondly, and equally satisfying to hear, was how Claire began to understand that she was the key to improving her relationship with anxiety and panic. She started allowing herself to experience all these uncomfortable thoughts and feelings, and each time would gain confidence in her capabilities. She remembers thinking, “I didn't develop anxiety overnight. I'm not going to get rid of it overnight.” Instead of constantly fighting these feelings and looking for the nearest solution or “skill” she had learned in therapy, she started looking at anxiety as something that may be present, but not something to be ashamed of or feared. Instead, it should be acknowledged and accepted. As she puts it, “I started thinking about my anxiety as like, hey girl, get in the car with me.” This shift in mindset is incredibly powerful and integral to forming a healthy relationship with anxiety and panic.
I can’t thank Claire enough for joining me on this week's podcast. Hearing about her journey, especially through the lens of a licensed therapist, offers incomparable insight that I think we can all benefit from! Anxiety and panic doesn’t discriminate, it can affect anyone and everyone, and my conversation with Claire was a reinforcing reminder of that. No matter your background or situation, remember that you are the most crucial part of improving the relationship with anxiety. You are more than capable, and you are not alone!
The doors to Panic to Peace will be opening in January 2025! If 2025 is your year to say goodbye to the anxious thoughts, symptoms, panic attacks, and fears and actually start LIVING your life, head here to get on the waiting list.
Feeling like you've tried everything but you're still struggling with lots of anxious thoughts, symptoms, panic attacks, and fears? Take my FREE 60-minute masterclass today and learn 5 shifts that will actually help you to overcome anxiety, panic disorder, and agoraphobia. And I promise, you won't hear any of the usual stuff from me - like doing breathing exercises, grounding practices, cutting out caffeine, and doing more exposures. Let's get you the peace and freedom you deserve without it being so hard!
Check out my masterclasses here and start experiencing lots more peace, joy, & freedom!
Transcript
00:01.98
Shannon Jackson
All right. Another one of my favorite conversations. I swear I say that every time, but they literally are my favorite conversations. I have another Panic to Feed student with me, Claire, and she actually just took the program in September. I think it opened in September. Maybe we started more toward the beginning of October. I don't know. It's all like a blur, and I can't even believe it's already done. um The 10 weeks always goes by so quickly. But anyway, Claire, welcome to a Healthy Push podcast.
00:32.67
Claire
Thank you so much for having me.
00:34.50
Shannon Jackson
Yeah, I am so, so happy. And I always love when my students are like, yes, I want to come on. But like, also, I'm anxious, nervous about it. But like, I want to share my story and help people. So I'm just so appreciative. Let's just start tell us a little bit about you.
00:50.99
Claire
Yeah, um so my name is Claire. I live in the Pacific Northwest. I am married. I have two very young children. um I'm a licensed therapist and I know anxiety very well.
01:05.64
Shannon Jackson
Yeah. ah It's so interesting. Like we were talking a little bit about this. I've had quite a few therapists take the program. And of course you have so much knowledge, right?
01:17.00
Shannon Jackson
Like you have so much knowledge, but it doesn't mean that you can't struggle yourself, right?
01:17.37
Claire
like
01:20.38
Claire
yeah
01:22.02
Shannon Jackson
Like we are all human. We all have struggles and stress and life and like things that happen that lead to to some things like anxiety.
01:23.32
Claire
Yes.
01:31.30
Shannon Jackson
So I'm so excited that you agreed to do this as a therapist because I think it's going to be so helpful for so many people listening. Like, oh, okay. Like she's a therapist and she struggles. Like it's okay for me to be struggling. Let's just start. When did you notice anxiety really popping up for you? And like, oh, this is, this is weird, right? This doesn't feel normal.
01:55.71
Claire
Yeah, so i I don't think I was an anxious kid. I think a lot of people with anxiety, they talk about, oh, I've always struggled with anxiety. This has always been a part of me. um That's not so much my story, but I do have that classic thing where I had my first panic attack and that really, really set me off.
02:15.25
Claire
um So I was 12 years old and I was on a spring break with my mom.
02:15.25
Shannon Jackson
Oh,
02:20.33
Claire
It was just my mother and me and we were in Egypt of all places.
02:24.85
Shannon Jackson
ah wow.
02:25.67
Claire
And um she scheduled a snorkeling trip for us. And I don't think I had ever been snorkeling before, but I was like, oh, great. like Yeah, let's let go snorkeling. And when we were on the boat, they had pictures of dangerous fish, I guess, where we were in the Red Sea. There's some very poisonous and dangerous fish.
02:47.43
Shannon Jackson
Okay.
02:47.88
Claire
Um, so I'm like studying these photos and I think I also kind of learned in, we kind of have these moments where it's like, well, the world isn't safe and maybe what I'm doing right now isn't safe.
03:02.06
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
03:02.64
Claire
Um, so it was really studying these photos and the, these fish, I think they camouflage within the coral and I,
03:13.20
Claire
get in the water, and I'm swimming around the coral. And my mom's not right next to me. She's kind of swimming off doing her other thing, you know during her own thing. um And I see what I perceive to be one of these really dangerous fish in my 12-year-old brain.
03:25.69
Shannon Jackson
Oh, God. Oh, God.
03:26.97
Claire
Whether it really was, I don't know, but I was like, this is the fish.
03:28.37
Shannon Jackson
Right.
03:31.76
Claire
And I don't know if poisonous means they kill you. I have no idea. um And then, like boom, I get all the classic symptoms. um racing heart, I'm shaking, I'm trembling.
03:45.39
Claire
I mean, the first thing I do is I get back on the boat, which thank God I did because panicking in the water is probably dangerous.
03:52.61
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
03:54.14
Claire
um And I get back on the boat and at that point I am not concerned about the fish, but I am terrified as what of what is happening in my body. I am so scared of these bodily sensations.
04:03.00
Shannon Jackson
Ugh.
04:06.83
Claire
um And I'm 12 and I have no idea what's going on. um and My mom was doing her own thing. I didn't know anybody on the boat.
04:18.32
Claire
There's like this massive language barrier. um So i I didn't tell anybody and I don't even think I told my mom. um I think it peaked and it passed and or it peaked and then it went away and then I don't think I thought about it again for the rest of the trip, but that was my first experience with panic.
04:27.73
Shannon Jackson
wow.
04:40.40
Shannon Jackson
That is so interesting that you were just like, oh, okay, that happened and I'm not going to talk about it. And like, we'll just hope that maybe that doesn't happen again.
04:49.50
Claire
like Yes, and that's exactly what happened. I was like, that was really strange. um You know, and I'm 12, so I'm kind of at the age where I'm not really a little girl anymore.
04:59.52
Claire
So I'm i'm kind of pulling away from my family a little bit.
05:02.10
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
05:03.74
Claire
um And then life kind of just moved on for me. And then several years later, I am a teenager and we are in Hawaii and my my parents plan a snorkeling trip.
05:16.59
Shannon Jackson
Oh, God, Claire.
05:17.19
Claire
I know.
05:20.41
Claire
And i I don't think twice, but the second I'm back in the water, boom, like all those classic symptoms hit, I get really...
05:29.30
Shannon Jackson
Do you remember, like, did you have a memory, like, come flooding back or it was just like you got in the water and you started feeling?
05:36.21
Claire
I think for me, it's all, I don't have a lot of thoughts. When I panic, it's all feelings.
05:39.68
Shannon Jackson
Okay.
05:41.26
Claire
It's all somatic for me. um oh And I didn't even know what anxiety was.
05:42.98
Shannon Jackson
Gotcha.
05:45.99
Claire
I think I was 15 at this point. I had no idea of what panic was. um And then I associated it with, oh, I have a problem with water.
05:55.13
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
05:55.47
Claire
There's not something with me, but I have a problem in the open water. um And I think that's what I thought the issue was.
05:59.94
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
06:05.35
Shannon Jackson
Yeah. So did that ah situation look similar to the one in Egypt? Or did you tell anyone?
06:10.63
Claire
yeah Yes. Yes.
06:12.63
Shannon Jackson
Like what?
06:13.16
Claire
No, no, I didn't.
06:13.68
Shannon Jackson
Oh my goodness.
06:14.38
Claire
I was kind of, and by this point I'm 15 and, you know, in my family, I think like a lot of families back then, we don't talk about mental health. And it's kind of like, if I did, I think the response I usually got was like, well, don't feel that way.
06:23.37
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
06:30.44
Claire
What's, you know, everything is fine. Like let, you know, let it go.
06:32.33
Shannon Jackson
Yep, yep.
06:34.34
Claire
And I, I think if that advice worked, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
06:39.37
Shannon Jackson
Right, like that would be so magical if that worked.
06:41.30
Claire
Yes, yes. And then, yeah, so i I just kind of thought, oh, i have and I have an issue in water. And then I had a pretty bad panic attack in high school on an airplane, um like sitting on the floor, crying.
06:56.79
Claire
I thought I was dying. um And then I think that panic attack was when I associated um like a racing heart. This must be an instrument sort of medical event.
07:05.85
Shannon Jackson
yeah
07:08.39
Claire
um Starting at that time, I got really attached to the idea of I need to be around somewhere where there is a hospital or there are medical people nearby um because what is happening in my body, there is no way that this could be anything other than some sort of very severe medical event.
07:28.44
Claire
um And I started, this was before Apple watches, but I would put my my fingers on my neck and just feel my pulse all the time.
07:28.47
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
07:37.96
Shannon Jackson
oh Yeah.
07:38.11
Claire
That was how I would, anytime I felt anxious, this was the first thing I would do is I was just constantly scanning my body for the sun. Not my thoughts, but I was just constantly scanning how I felt for anxiety.
07:52.19
Shannon Jackson
Oh my goodness, so common, right? Like that's such a common response. And I think everything that you shared so far is like something that a lot of people have experienced.
07:59.46
Claire
yeah
08:01.96
Shannon Jackson
And you truly do think there's no way that these sensations or symptoms is anything anxiety related. Like it's just bad. Whatever this is, it's really bad.
08:11.90
Claire
Yes.
08:12.60
Shannon Jackson
So did you know at this point, like you've had several, you still don't really know what's happening.
08:14.31
Claire
No.
08:17.62
Claire
No, I don't even think I really learned what anxiety was until I was in college. Like I had, I think I thought deep down there is something physically wrong with me.
08:24.84
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
08:30.00
Claire
One day I'm going to have a heart attack. One day they're going to find something is wrong with my heart. um And right now I'm just sort of dealing with that until it happens.
08:35.70
Shannon Jackson
Okay.
08:40.73
Claire
So kind of throughout my teen years and early twenties, I would have panic attacks when I was traveling. And I think that was because of my earlier experiences like in Egypt or Hawaii.
08:51.75
Claire
um When I was traveling, when I was in airplanes, um kind of feeling trapped, like I can't just get up and leave.
08:59.63
Shannon Jackson
yeah Gotcha.
08:59.80
Claire
But at this time it felt really manageable. um It wasn't impacting my life too much. It would happen here or there. And I'd be like, that's really scary and bizarre, but it wasn't it wasn't changing my life too much.
09:14.94
Claire
Um, and then in my early twenties, I decided to go to grad school to get my master's in counseling psychology, where I learned a ton about anxiety. And I was like, okay, not only do I have anxiety, but I have panic disorder.
09:28.59
Claire
Like this is, I had never heard of panic disorder before.
09:31.09
Shannon Jackson
like self-diagnosed in college studying.
09:35.41
Claire
Right. Right. And you know, and in grad school, you learn how to treat. clients. So we get the information of this is how these are the interventions that you use. So I got a lot of psychoeducation, which was helpful. um And you know I learned that you feel like you're dying when you're having a panic attack, but you are not dying.
09:58.06
Claire
I learned some mindfulness techniques, some cognitive restructuring, and that was kind of all I needed and to heat my panic at bay.
10:06.31
Shannon Jackson
Okay.
10:07.97
Claire
It was like I didn't need anything else. That was all I needed. And I was like, oh, I'm not dying. There's nothing wrong with my heart. I i have panic attacks. ah
10:17.54
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
10:19.36
Claire
And it didn't really affect me for about 10 years.
10:20.67
Shannon Jackson
Oh, wow.
10:21.76
Claire
I don't think I, I mean, I, during that time I became a licensed therapist. I got married. I had kids. I like survived COVID. Okay. Things were things in life were going pretty well.
10:33.73
Shannon Jackson
Okay.
10:34.70
Claire
And then in 2023, boom, I had a panic attack on an airplane. Um, I was traveling by myself for the first time since having kids.
10:46.73
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
10:46.93
Claire
um It's been a long time. I was going to a bachelorette in Los Angeles, which is a quick flight from where I'm at. And I had a full fledged panic attack by myself.
10:58.82
Claire
um and I was so blindsided and horrified. like I couldn't access any of my skills. I didn't know what to do. It had been so long.
11:10.25
Claire
And I knew I wasn't having a medical emergency, but I was sitting there being like, I'm going to have to tell the flight attendant, um which is mortifying.
11:17.89
Shannon Jackson
Uh-huh.
11:21.03
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
11:21.12
Claire
you know If I have to tell a flight attendant, it's OK. But it's also like, this is an early morning flight. Everyone's just trying to get to LA. I mean, it's it was I was so scared.
11:27.48
Shannon Jackson
Right.
11:30.97
Claire
You know, it peaked and then it it came down and we landed and I was okay, but it ruined my weekend because I knew two days later, I'm going to have to get back on a plane. And then for the next year and a half, I was just riddled with panic and anticipatory anxiety, like in a way that I have never experienced in my life. um It kind of became a pretty dark time. And I just, I don't know what happened or why I've been feeling okay for so long. um But yeah, then that just that that really set off the past you know year and a half of my life. and
12:05.84
Shannon Jackson
Yeah, goodness, that's so interesting. I think, okay, so back up, right? I think education is so, so important. That's a piece that, right? A lot of people will say, I just didn't know. I didn't know what was happening.
12:15.88
Shannon Jackson
I didn't know that that could be, quote, you know, just anxiety. Having that understanding that education is super helpful. um So I'm glad that was helpful for so long.
12:26.22
Shannon Jackson
It is so wild how you went through COVID and having babies and getting married to all these really big life events.
12:29.05
Claire
yeah
12:34.29
Shannon Jackson
And you were like, I'm okay. And then all of a sudden, just this one panic attack right on an airplane.
12:37.14
Claire
yeah
12:40.30
Claire
Mm-hmm.
12:41.57
Shannon Jackson
And I think, like I always kind of say with being on the airplane, it's like the the the biggest of biggest thing right that could happen. like your You're actually stuck. like You cannot get off. And like you said, like nobody wants to feel uncomfortable and to panic, but let alone tell somebody like on an airplane, you know it's going to be embarrassing. And we will avoid that just as much as we avoid feeling anxious. like I don't want to feel embarrassed, so I'm just not going to say anything. I'm going to like ride this out as best I can. So I assume right from that,
13:16.26
Shannon Jackson
airplane panic attack it was like kind of in your brain at that point of oh my gosh this is how bad it could be and I think experiencing it alone too like heightens that.
13:28.62
Shannon Jackson
I don't know what was your thinking after?
13:29.77
Claire
Yes, I think being alone, not having like a safe person, I think that was, I think if I was with my husband and kids, I don't think it would have gotten that bad or affected me that bad.
13:44.11
Claire
um Because i've I've flown with them several times.
13:47.30
Shannon Jackson
yeah
13:47.91
Claire
um But it was, and then something like happened in my brain where it was like, I'm not safe if I'm feeling trapped.
13:55.61
Shannon Jackson
Yep.
13:57.48
Claire
So for the you know the past year and a half, it was in I was in places where I was historically normally always fine. Getting my nails done, going to doctor's appointments, going taking my kids to swim class, um going out to dinner with friends, anywhere that I then felt socially trapped.
14:17.82
Claire
like
14:18.01
Shannon Jackson
yep
14:18.54
Claire
I can get up and walk away from a pedicure, but that is extremely odd. um i can
14:23.64
Shannon Jackson
Right, I'm done, like just one foot is all I wanted.
14:27.21
Claire
ah so um So anywhere where I perceived I was trapped, I was panicking every single time.
14:34.66
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
14:34.82
Claire
And not only that, but I was having so much anticipatory anxiety, which is was so rare for me. I'm not a person that cries very often, um but I would be sobbing to my husband before I had these appointments, just being like, I am so scared. I don't know why I am so scared, but I am terrified. And its I think unless you've had panic attacks, it's hard to describe the terror that you feel.
15:04.53
Shannon Jackson
Yep, for sure. I know it's so hard and people will say, how can I explain it to somebody right who has never experienced it? How do I make them understand? And I'm like, you really can't.
15:15.52
Shannon Jackson
right But you're also not looking to make them understand. You're just really wanting to be heard and validated, and that makes sense. But I would say it's pretty similar right to like if you're afraid of heights or if you're afraid of spiders, whatever it is.
15:22.69
Claire
Yeah.
15:30.30
Shannon Jackson
I don't know. I always try to use those examples and say, hey, like Just go do it, right? And and don't feel afraid. like Don't have that adrenaline rush. It's like, what? No, I can't.
15:40.50
Shannon Jackson
like I can't. you know I'm going to feel that way.
15:42.15
Claire
Yes.
15:43.23
Shannon Jackson
So it's like, even though you knew, right? like This is not going to kill me. I know that like this is going to pass. I know nothing is like physiologically wrong.
15:53.44
Shannon Jackson
like You have so much information and knowledge. Still, you were so stuck right on, I do not want to feel this way. I do not want to feel it.
16:02.97
Claire
And I think it was I don't want to feel this but I can't feel this, you know Yes, yeah and I felt I felt like I couldn't handle being out in the world and then I started to
16:07.07
Shannon Jackson
Uh, yeah. Cause I'm like, I can't handle it. Yeah.
16:19.26
Claire
kind of look at my life and think this isn't the kind of mom I want to be.
16:24.68
Shannon Jackson
a
16:25.21
Claire
This isn't the kind of life I want to have. I mean, I had thoughts of, I'm going to be that mom who can't go to my kid's soccer games. And that broke my heart. And I think just with my background, um I could so clearly see the road to agoraphobia.
16:44.37
Claire
I was like, I am on this road. um you know because i had Then I started having panic attacks and traffic. And then I wouldn't want to get on those certain bridges again.
16:51.87
Shannon Jackson
and
16:53.67
Claire
And then I started, once I started really kind of playing chess in my life of, well, now I'm only going to take these bridges or now I'm only going to leave during these times. I was like, Claire, you are on the road to agoraphobia.
17:05.22
Claire
And this is, um I could just see how easily that could happen.
17:07.70
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
17:10.24
Claire
um And I was really scared. I was really scared of the road that I was going down.
17:15.88
Shannon Jackson
Yeah, I just got chills when you were saying all of that because I've never of course thought about it through that lens of you working right as a therapist and seeing people make all these different choices and recognizing like it makes sense why they're so scared and why they're limiting and why they're restricting and not wanting to do all the things
17:25.08
Claire
um
17:34.83
Claire
yeah
17:40.17
Shannon Jackson
And then you living through it and going, Oh gosh, like that is now me.
17:42.33
Claire
yeah
17:46.20
Shannon Jackson
And I, like you said, right?
17:46.22
Claire
Mm-hmm.
17:48.75
Shannon Jackson
I don't want this. Like this cannot be my life.
17:49.87
Claire
No. No. And at that point, I was kind of like, you know so right now, I'm not working. Right now, I'm just um i'm home with the kids. And I have a little bit more time ah like when they're at school, not just in general.
18:04.74
Shannon Jackson
Yeah. Yeah.
18:05.77
Claire
oh But I was like, I'm going to do everything in my power to try to cure this.
18:12.29
Shannon Jackson
yeah
18:13.39
Claire
And I say cure because I think it's important to know at that time my mindset was like, well, I'm going to get rid of this. I'm going to do everything in my power to get rid of this.
18:23.20
Shannon Jackson
two
18:24.14
Claire
um So the first thing I did was I called a psychologist who specializes, it was a treatment center that specializes in exposure therapy.
18:36.83
Claire
So with my background, I was like, I'm going to start with exposure.
18:38.67
Shannon Jackson
Yep. Yeah.
18:39.03
Claire
I know the science and the data behind it are really good.
18:41.27
Shannon Jackson
yeah
18:41.55
Claire
This is a really effective treatment model. um And then on the phone with my intake, they were like, you're going to be feeling so much better in six to 12 weeks or whatever it was. And I was like, great, I'm going to go do this and I'm going to feel better.
18:54.91
Claire
um And I really liked my psychologist. And I think I got some good information. I got some good reframes, but the exposure did not work for me.
19:05.79
Claire
And I know you talk about exposure a little bit.
19:06.31
Shannon Jackson
yeah
19:08.23
Claire
It just didn't click with me. it just you know they They do these things to try to mimic anxiety in your body. So like I would breathe through these really skinny little straws for like a minute.
19:16.46
Shannon Jackson
Yeah. Yeah. Uh huh.
19:21.53
Claire
which is very uncomfortable and it would make my heart, my heart racing was very triggering for me. You know, it would make my heart race and hyperventilate, but like it didn't terrify me.
19:26.61
Shannon Jackson
Mm hmm.
19:32.05
Claire
You know, and I was, I was just beating myself up because I was like, well, they've done all this research and it works and people feel bad.
19:32.74
Shannon Jackson
Interesting.
19:38.70
Claire
Like, why is it not working for me? Like what is wrong with me that treatment's not working for me?
19:43.53
Shannon Jackson
yeah.
19:44.51
Claire
Um, And it was really frustrating. I remember my psychologist even said, you know, I met with my consult group and I brought up your case and everybody doesn't know why this isn't working. and oh
19:55.80
Shannon Jackson
Oh my gosh, what you what you must have been feeling, right?
20:00.67
Claire
Yeah.
20:01.22
Shannon Jackson
and Not to feel like this, this is touted right to be sort of the thing that works. It's, it's the standard treatment.
20:08.08
Claire
Yes. Yes.
20:08.91
Shannon Jackson
But this is so, so common that people who are struggling with panic disorder and agoraphobia, especially if it's more new, I found it does not help and can actually do quite the opposite.
20:19.72
Claire
No.
20:23.07
Shannon Jackson
So that's really, I'm interested, like tell tell us more.
20:26.89
Claire
so he would I would do all these exercises. so Another thing was, oh, I would spin in a chair because that would make you that would make you dizzy.
20:31.85
Shannon Jackson
Yep.
20:34.61
Claire
um so you know and I said, well, I'm not going to do this stuff before I go get my nails done because I'm already terrified. and so We started doing it in neutral settings. like I was okay going to the grocery store, but then I would breathe into my straws and go into the grocery store.
20:49.30
Claire
but i was like i I'm fine. like This is uncomfortable, but it's not mimicking whatever happens in my body when I have that rush of adrenaline.
21:01.37
Shannon Jackson
ah
21:02.19
Claire
And it's like when I'm at the store, if I'm scared, I'm just going to go to my car.
21:05.50
Shannon Jackson
yet
21:05.52
Claire
um yeah
21:07.87
Shannon Jackson
if there is there There's something I know I can quickly do to feel better and it is not this.
21:11.27
Claire
yes Yes. So I stuck with it for a while. And at that point I was like, I'm going to do so many other things.
21:21.31
Claire
And that was at the point where he said, i I think you need to talk to your doctor about medication.
21:26.60
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
21:26.83
Claire
And I was never against medication. um But I didn't want to be on it. you know I think a lot of people feel that way. And I have an amazing primary care physician. We have a really good relationship.
21:39.46
Claire
And I called him and I told him what was going on. and I said, i'm I'm ready to start medication and I'm ready to feel better. And he said, Claire, there's no magic pill that's gonna fix this.
21:47.64
Shannon Jackson
Hmm.
21:52.10
Claire
And I was like, what? Like this was supposed to work.
21:58.45
Claire
He said, yes, these can reduce symptoms and let's talk about what side effects you might be looking at. And, um you know, he he really left the decision up to me. He was like, I'm not gonna tell you what to do.
22:08.92
Claire
I will prescribe you. it was um like the low dose, like 25 milligrams of Zoloft, I think. He said, I'll just prescribe you this low dose.
22:15.64
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
22:19.00
Claire
Take it, don't take it. If you do follow up with me in six weeks. um I never ended up taking it. um I just didn't really feel truly convinced. And I think anxious people don't like taking medication.
22:31.27
Shannon Jackson
Oh, for sure, right? That control, yeah. Like, how is it gonna make me feel?
22:34.10
Claire
Yeah.
22:35.19
Shannon Jackson
What if it makes things worse?
22:35.86
Claire
Right.
22:36.35
Shannon Jackson
I can't handle any worse than what I'm already experiencing.
22:40.25
Claire
Right. So I had that in my back pocket. um And then I thought, well, what else can I do? I kept trying to do things to cure this.
22:48.96
Shannon Jackson
yeah
22:51.00
Claire
And I i live in a kind of a hippy-dippy part of the country.
22:53.01
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
22:55.11
Claire
And there's a lot of access to sort of alternative treatments. And I did hypnosis.
23:00.85
Shannon Jackson
Cool.
23:01.92
Claire
I did Reiki. I'm not sure how to say it.
23:04.67
Shannon Jackson
Yep.
23:05.60
Claire
ah I was doing acupuncture. I was doing all these things that felt good and I think were really good for my nervous system. It calmed my nervous system.
23:17.19
Claire
I was doing good self-care, but it wasn't changing the relationship I had with my panic at all.
23:23.60
Shannon Jackson
Yeah. Yeah. I know. And that's often, of course, when you're struggling and in the at the height of everything, you are going to look for anything and everything. You are going to try all the things. But I am so glad that you had a doctor that said to you, like,
23:40.66
Shannon Jackson
There is no magic pill. There is no magic fix for this. And that's sort of the disclaimer that I always put on everything that I teach and do because of course you want that. We all want that. We all want to feel better. We want it to be taken away and we always want that quick route to to feeling better.
23:59.32
Shannon Jackson
So I'm so glad that they had that conversation with you. Because usually it is just try the medication, you know, this will fix things and on your way. And it's like, what? If you go that path and medication does end up being helpful for you, that's great. But like you said, it is this sort of tool that can turn down the dial, but it is not fixing your relationship with your emotions.
24:22.14
Claire
No.
24:22.16
Shannon Jackson
So no matter what it is, if you find meditation or hypnosis or Reiki or any of these things to be helpful, that's great. I'm not against these things, but they're not magic fixes and they're not the things that are going to help you to really do that hard work of building the relationship with your emotions.
24:39.49
Shannon Jackson
Helpful is great, but not cures.
24:40.73
Claire
Yes. and i was I was so vulnerable to anything that said, this will cure your anxiety.
24:47.20
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
24:48.13
Claire
So I did all the supplements and i just I got so excited before trying anything. And I was always so let down. And that's when my exposure therapist said, he was like, Claire, you can't white knuckle your way through this.
25:02.12
Claire
you can't there There's not going to be any quick fix. And I remember feeling I felt both really sad, but also relieved. Like, okay, there's nothing I can do, there's nothing I can buy, there's no pill I can take, there's I can't sit through a hypnosis session that's going to cure this. um And I also felt some shame of like, Claire, you know this, like you you have you have the background, like why is this not connecting for you?
25:35.04
Claire
um And i I found you around this time, I had just gotten on insta Instagram and I had typed in like panic disorder. Cause I was like, who else has panic?
25:46.24
Claire
You know, well how are other people dealing with this?
25:46.71
Shannon Jackson
Yeah. Yeah.
25:49.52
Claire
And um that's when I found your website and you had a free course and I took a free course. Then I think I paid for another one. I i can't remember which one, um but that was the first time I had heard you had said, you don't need to do anything when you're feeling panic.
26:06.36
Shannon Jackson
Mm hmm.
26:07.13
Claire
and deep breathe if you want or you don't, but you actually don't have to do anything. And I was kind of like, I don't have to think about all these skills and all these, I i don't, i like gave me permission to be like, it's not that you're doing deep breathing wrong or it's not that you're doing this exposure wrong, but it's like, you actually don't have to be doing anything about it.
26:24.83
Shannon Jackson
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and all the doing is what's generating so much of the anxiety.
26:33.48
Claire
Yes.
26:34.91
Shannon Jackson
And I think, you know, it's all these things that I wish, back in my journey, and I'm sure you feel the same, I wish somebody just would have said, like, dang, just give yourself permission to feel what you're feeling, and stop trying to throw all the fixes at it.
26:48.99
Shannon Jackson
But It's like the very human part of us. Of course you're trying to fix it. You're trying to get rid of it, but just giving yourself that permission of like, Oh, I don't have to do all the things and I can just let myself panic.
26:54.39
Claire
Okay.
26:59.72
Claire
and
27:01.13
Shannon Jackson
And of course all the shit goes out the window when I'm panicking and I don't know what to do when none of the skills and tools are working. That's not because I suck or because I'm broken or there's anything wrong with me.
27:12.24
Shannon Jackson
That's just physiologically when you're heightened like that, what are you going to do? You have to just let it happen.
27:18.03
Claire
Yeah.
27:18.66
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
27:19.31
Claire
Yeah. And I i remember i i so in in your course and in Panic to Peace, we talked a lot about our why, our values, and I would be driving my kids to swimming or to school, and I'd be saying out loud, like, I deserve to take my kids to school.
27:39.65
Claire
My kids deserve to have their mom take them to school. I mean, I was saying this out because I i had to. and The way I started, after I found you, the way I started thinking about my anxiety was like, hey girl, get in the car with me.
27:55.92
Claire
Like you're coming with me. I'm taking my kids to school. You can come. You can be with us the whole time. That's fine. But like, we're going to take our kids to school together then. um you You are now along for the rock for the ride.
28:05.82
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
28:09.21
Claire
And that opened the door to I think accepting.
28:13.35
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
28:14.64
Claire
But I still hated feeling panicked.
28:16.86
Shannon Jackson
Of course. Of course. That in that I don't think like I tell people I'm like that don't expect that to go away. Like i I feel like you hear people's stories sometimes and even like people who are very well known in the anxiety space of being like I got to this point where I just like wasn't scared anymore and I just like didn't care if I panicked and I'm like I don't think I ever got to that place.
28:37.13
Claire
That's it. Wow.
28:40.04
Shannon Jackson
Like It is a terrible feeling. And the goal is to never try to make yourself less terrified.
28:44.47
Claire
Yes.
28:45.58
Shannon Jackson
The goal is just to be better about letting yourself feel it, right? And I'm glad so glad you mentioned the acceptance thing, because I think people get so hung up on that. Like, I just can't. Like, I can't accept it.
28:56.30
Shannon Jackson
And I think people think part of the acceptance is I have to not be feel scared. Like, I have to just be okay with it.
29:00.75
Claire
no
29:01.87
Shannon Jackson
And it's like, no, you don't. Like, you can feel scared, terrified. That's fine. Like, we're not trying to make that go away.
29:07.93
Claire
Yes. I can be scared, terrified, but I have to acknowledge that that the anxiety is in the room.
29:15.56
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
29:15.66
Claire
I can't, and I think for so long I was saying, I can't feel this way.
29:20.18
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
29:20.40
Claire
on and in your course, you know you had talked about that, about how it's just because you panic, that doesn't mean you're now further down the road of recovery.
29:31.72
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
29:32.00
Claire
And I had never thought of it that way. And I think, because I was still panicking during this time quite a bit, but I wasn't like, well, I guess this is this now makes everything so much worse for me.
29:44.34
Claire
Um, I still felt like, no, I, I, now I just have a little bit more information, you know, now I can just, I'm still on the road to recovery, even if I'm panicking and that's okay.
29:55.53
Shannon Jackson
So much reframing happening like mentally and that's so cool because for you you say you know a lot of the anxiety is more physical and is not so much in my head and it's different for everyone but I think
30:05.84
Claire
Yes.
30:09.07
Shannon Jackson
a lot of the work is done in your brain and and changing the relationship with your thoughts and and yourself and how you're responding to all this stuff because especially for you right that anticipatory anxiety that is so much generated with what you're telling yourself and
30:13.10
Claire
yes
30:26.25
Shannon Jackson
whether or not you're going along with the stories and and how far down the rabbit holes you're going.
30:30.72
Claire
Yes.
30:31.18
Shannon Jackson
So like you really doing that work to change what you were telling yourself and how you were thinking about things. like I think that makes such a big difference in how you feel about things.
30:42.41
Claire
huge. It made such a huge difference. um And it it took time. I mean, I think it is a muscle. And I think I said this in one of the panic to peace classes, like I didn't develop anxiety overnight. I'm not going to get rid of it overnight. This is something that I, and I'm still working on this muscle. I mean, even yesterday I was in an appointment and I started getting anxious.
31:05.13
Claire
And I just kind of set on repeat in my mind, like I accept and allow this anxious feeling. And then it goes away. It's so funny because once you kind of take the power away from your panic, your panic's like, okay, like I'm bored.
31:17.04
Claire
I'm taking the vaccine now.
31:17.79
Shannon Jackson
Yeah, yeah.
31:20.32
Claire
And I think I might always be using these skills, but I'm not, you know, I'm still going to appointments. I'm not changing my life in a way that I was. and I, this is so funny.
31:32.44
Claire
I can't believe I'm saying this, but the other day I was getting in my car to go to the nail salon and I was like, Oh, I wonder if I'm going to panic and I can, I can use some of what I know.
31:42.05
Shannon Jackson
um
31:43.30
Claire
Oh my God. like
31:45.78
Shannon Jackson
Wait, it's like an opportunity to practice?
31:47.97
Claire
but
31:47.98
Shannon Jackson
Who am I and why am I thinking this way?
31:51.77
Claire
I couldn't believe it. I was like, oh my, because it's, it it is still, you know, when I do panic, it is really scary. And I've just, I don't know.
32:02.34
Claire
I've, when I take the power away from my panic, it kind of like leaves me alone a little bit.
32:05.64
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
32:09.24
Claire
Or when I do start to panic and I accept and allow,
32:09.57
Shannon Jackson
yes
32:13.79
Claire
it doesn't bother me so much like for the rest of the day. So before when I would panic, I would be rattled for days afterwards.
32:20.02
Shannon Jackson
yeah
32:20.66
Claire
And now when I panic, I'm like, oh, I ah know what to do. This is gonna rise. I'm gonna let it rise. um It's uncomfortable and I'll get through it.
32:32.38
Claire
And then I get through it and it's like, I don't even think about it again.
32:35.77
Shannon Jackson
yeah ah it's It's like you said, right? It is kind of like um'm a muscle. Our brains are similar. You have to work it, right? You have to have this consistent practice with it and responding in those healthy ways for your brain to be like, oh, okay.
32:50.88
Shannon Jackson
And then eventually, like, and it doesn't take too long. It's just that consistent practice.
32:54.88
Claire
No.
32:55.65
Shannon Jackson
And you will see like your brain is letting you experience more of the peace and it's not having you on constant alert. And when you do experience the anxiety and panic, it's fading much more quickly.
33:07.26
Shannon Jackson
but it's like it takes those very intentional mindful moments to slow things down and to change the way that you're responding to it. But like when you do that work like and I always tell people it's like I struggled for 15 years but when I actually started doing the work like the work that I just wasn't aware of for so long because nobody ever told me.
33:27.91
Shannon Jackson
But when I started to do that, it was months. It was months that I actually started to feel better and it started to show up less. And when it did show up, it sucked. But I let go of it much more quickly and was just like on my way.
33:39.29
Claire
Yes. Yes. i I so agree. And i I shared the story, I think, during Panic to Peace, where I went to an event with my kids. We went to Disney on Ice as a family.
33:50.04
Claire
We were kind of in the front and in the middle, so i could there wasn't an easy exit.
33:55.71
Shannon Jackson
Oh, yeah.
33:56.38
Claire
Right. And I started panicking. And I think this was probably the worst I've panicked since I had been in the class. And I was just like, I'm going to sit here and I'm going to feel it. I'm going to allow it to happen. And like I cannot emphasize enough that it sucked. It was scary. It wasn't fun. But I think two and a half minutes later, I was watching the show and like didn't wasn't really thinking about it anymore.
34:23.49
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
34:23.69
Claire
Whereas months ago, six months ago, I would have been like, I'm leaving this building. We all got to get up and go. I mean, it would have would have been totally different, but it um but it's it's really hard.
34:31.32
Shannon Jackson
um Right?
34:36.37
Claire
I think it took me a long time to get to the point where I i could do that.
34:40.83
Shannon Jackson
Yeah, because you don't immediately have that capacity. It's crazy.
34:43.51
Claire
No.
34:43.83
Shannon Jackson
You know, what I think that's to the pressure sometimes that people can feel in starting this journey is like, I have to allow myself to feel and to be with this, but like, I can't like everything in me is like, do not do not do this.
34:57.91
Shannon Jackson
And that's okay. Like it does take time and space for you to build that capacity. And there are things that you can do to help you build that capacity. And I think that's why like the interoceptive exposures that the straw breathing and all that shit was not helpful, because like at that point, you didn't have that that capacity to be able to feel and to accept and allow. And I, I mean, this is not the first time I've heard this, right? Like,
35:23.39
Shannon Jackson
the spinning in the chair, the breathing through the straw. It's like, I am so not a fan. So not a fan. It can be helpful. It is helpful for some people. But I just think when you are starting out there, like here, you just need to feel the fear and get better at feeling this it right off the bat makes you feel like What?
35:43.66
Shannon Jackson
So I'm just going to make myself feel worse.
35:43.76
Claire
Yeah.
35:45.54
Shannon Jackson
And then if it if I'm not feeling better, like then I'm going to beat myself up because this isn't working.
35:47.30
Claire
Yeah.
35:51.01
Shannon Jackson
And like I just feel like I'm living in the space of constant anxiety. It's like, OK, maybe this isn't the only path, right? like And maybe a big part of it for a lot of people is building that capacity to feel and to build that trust within yourself.
36:07.66
Shannon Jackson
It doesn't just come. like You have to do work for it.
36:11.89
Claire
And I like how you bring up trust within yourself. And you talked about this in your class about how nobody's going to get through a panic attack for me. It has always ever been me. And that's something that I think is in the back of my mind. Like when I was on the airplane, whether I'm by myself or whether my husband is there,
36:30.49
Claire
I'm still the one getting through the bit. Nobody else can dive into my brain and fix it for me.
36:35.75
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
36:35.93
Claire
It's always going to be me, which is scary. But then at the same time, it's like, well, then the relief is within me.
36:45.19
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
36:45.92
Claire
um And that's that's been impactful for me too, you know, knowing that i'm I'm the one that
36:51.29
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
36:54.12
Claire
that can get through this. And I do, get I've gotten through the worst panic attacks I've ever had. I'm the one that got through it.
37:02.34
Shannon Jackson
Yeah, yeah, but you can't, you know, and people say, I know it's so hard because when you're in it, you don't feel that trust. You don't feel that safety. And of course you don't. And it is so frustrating because it does take time to build that.
37:15.81
Shannon Jackson
but it is not because you're incapable. It's not because there's anything really wrong with you. It's just you have lost some of that trust and you have lost some of that safety, but like that stuff that you can build back and it just takes, I know I'm so annoying, like the small consistent steps of showing yourself. And I think a big part for you right too was,
37:37.74
Shannon Jackson
actually letting yourself stay and not running and like giving yourself that space to be able to feel along with all the other stuff that you said.
37:44.76
Claire
Yes.
37:46.62
Shannon Jackson
like it's all It all has to come together. It's not going to be this one magical thing that fixes it all.
37:51.95
Claire
Right. And i was I had always been so obsessed with my with my heart rate. um And at this time, you know now here I am wearing an Apple Watch, and you had talked about this, about you know It doesn't matter if your heart rate is 60 beats per minute or 160, 180.
38:09.86
Claire
You're still safe. so Now when my heart starts to race, and you know I tell myself, my body knows what to do. like I don't think this is what dying feels like.
38:17.33
Shannon Jackson
Yep.
38:20.42
Claire
I you know i will tell myself that. and You know, I'm somebody who exercises, you know, my heart rate will get up and my body knows what to do to bring it down. And just because, you know, if I'm sitting in traffic and okay, my watch is telling me I'm at 160, that actually doesn't mean anything.
38:39.32
Claire
um
38:39.39
Shannon Jackson
Literally, yeah.
38:40.33
Claire
no And that has been, it's like, I'm no more less safe or not than if it was going at the lowest that it should go. um And that's been really impactful too, that it's like, oh, I can panic and and i it's so it's okay. It sucks. It absolutely sucks. And I'm okay.
39:00.27
Shannon Jackson
Yeah, for sure. I mean, but you have to see those. You have to kind of have these moments where you have these like recognitions. I remember hiking and sometimes you feel it right when you're exerting yourself. And like I would feel the lightheadedness and it's like you can quickly go along with those stories of like, oh shit, something bad is going to happen. Like I'm not okay. I can't be feeling this way.
39:22.17
Shannon Jackson
And you catch yourself, and you're like, okay, slow things down. Like, yeah, of course, we're heart rates up. Of course, we're feeling a little bit exerted. Like, that's okay. My body knows what to do and knows how to take care of me. And I need to just step back and let it do its thing. Like, I do not need to be in the mix. And it's the same with your thoughts, with your feeling. Like, we don't need to get in the mix the more we step outside of it.
39:44.60
Shannon Jackson
the more we tell anxiety, I don't really need you right now.
39:47.28
Claire
Yeah.
39:47.41
Shannon Jackson
Like it's great that you're showing up, but I don't really need you.
39:48.17
Claire
Yeah.
39:50.14
Shannon Jackson
And then it gets the message of like, okay, like we'll just be on our way.
39:52.49
Claire
yeah Yeah, and that was really helpful for me when I had all the anticipatory anxiety because that was really um impacting like my if I had something in the evening it would impact my entire day and That was really impactful of just being like I don't know what's gonna happen But I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole.
40:12.45
Claire
I mean Me creating I'm trying to create a story so I can then deal with said issue but I have no idea what's gonna happen and
40:17.85
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
40:23.87
Claire
there's no you know what is this doing for me and um
40:26.75
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
40:28.61
Claire
Another thing, I don't know if we talked about this in Panic to Peace or in the class, but it was, um you know, if I wasn't so obsessed with my panic, if I wasn't so busy about my panic, like what would I be thinking about?
40:39.36
Claire
What what else would I be doing?
40:39.64
Shannon Jackson
yeah
40:42.35
Claire
So when I was having anticipatory anxiety, I was shifting my focus of like, I have a million things I have to do today. If I'm not thinking about my panic, what can I do? I have to do laundry. I have to, you know, pick up.
40:53.29
Claire
yet There's so much to do.
40:55.01
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
40:55.19
Claire
<unk> And I'm just i'm just not gonna go down it. I accept that you're here. I acknowledge that you're here, but I'm not gonna do anything about it.
41:02.86
Shannon Jackson
Yeah, I love that. And that is so much of how to deal with in anticipat anticipatory anxiety is like, nope, not going there. Like, we're not doing that right now.
41:09.62
Claire
yeah
41:11.97
Shannon Jackson
um Okay, so that your story is like, so interesting. And you know, people are like absorbing all of this and like loving this. It's just so cool to see your journey and like how you know, you ah had the education, you had the awareness, it still didn't stop you from feeling. You had to learn how to build that capacity to feel and to feel and do it without medication, like, and acknowledge, like, I have to do it without sort of any magic thing coming along to fix it all for me.
41:41.17
Claire
Yeah. Yeah. If there would have been a pill, I would have bought, you know, would have yeah I would have done it.
41:44.98
Shannon Jackson
Right.
41:47.11
Claire
But i and I think I knew deep down that I i had to do, um I had to do this work.
41:52.92
Shannon Jackson
yeah Yeah, but it's good when you finally have that recognition because that's when you can actually like do the work and build the trust and the safety and all of that. so Oh my gosh, Claire, I'm so thankful to you for coming on and being so vulnerable and sharing your story. If somebody is in that place that you were last year, right like I'm panicking all the time. I am so scared to panic. I am like retreating, right avoiding, limiting. What would you say to that person?
42:23.17
Claire
I mean, honestly, I would tell them to go watch your free course. I think you have that mean, truly watch that 60-minute course, um and then you know buy the other ones that you find are applicable.
42:27.01
Shannon Jackson
ah yeah
42:34.38
Claire
um And I mean, I really recommend Panic to Peace just because it normalizes your experience and it's like, I'm not alone. And I would think about that sometimes of like how I'm feeling right now, I know and I can see their faces, other people probably feeling this way too.
42:50.37
Shannon Jackson
Yeah. Yeah. yeah
42:53.26
Claire
um But I think, you know, talking to people is is really, really important. you know Find your community, find your supports, talk to people, take care of yourself.
43:03.59
Claire
I think you can't do this work if your nervous system is fried. So I think even for me, like the hypnosis and the Reiki, that might've just brought my nervous system down to where I could do all this.
43:13.78
Shannon Jackson
Yeah.
43:14.42
Claire
um you know There are a lot of really great therapists out there um and I call it therapist shopping. You have to shop around to find the therapist that works for you because not every therapist is gonna work for everybody and that's okay.
43:26.83
Shannon Jackson
Yeah, for sure.
43:27.14
Claire
Um, but yeah, and I just like go easy on yourself. It's this, it's a journey and, um, yeah, yeah. Give yourself grace.
43:37.45
Shannon Jackson
Oh, I am so proud of you. And just thank you so much for coming on and sharing.
43:43.80
Claire
Yeah. Thank you for having me.
